ante_climaxWhy do you keep repeating this nonsense?
FYI, the MRCA contenders can be broken down into
1) Aircraft in production for the vendor nations:
Gripen
Rafale
Eurofighter
2) Aircraft not in production for the vendor nations:
MiG-35
F-16The F-16IN & MiG-35 are unique to India. Neither is in service elsewhere, or in production for any other customer. Lockheed Martin now has a greater focus on the replacement for the F-16 than any version of the F-16.
Now, seriously, which have the greater commitment from the suppliers?
According to your criteria for commitment, MiG-35 & F-16IN shouldn’t even be allowed to bid – but instead, you choose to talk down the commitment of the European nations to their products. It is clear that you are prejudiced, & willing to misrepresent facts as much as necessary to make them fit your preconceived view. How long have you been working for LM?
A few avionic tweaks here and there will not make a new aircraft. Especially in the case of F 16IN. the components that are being used will be found in use elsewhere. Like I have pointed out in the posts before, It can use the MICA and ASRAAM and Litening instead of AMRAAM, AIM 9x and sniper. India is already in the process of acquiring ASRAAM for its Mirage upgrade and Litening is already in service. The F 16IN and Mig 35 being tailor made for India has many benefits.
What is the French Air Forces commitment to Rafale, Under 290 planes for the Army and Navy total according to the Rafale thread. And that compared to thousands of Falcons in service world wide, and even when the U.S retires the Falcon, the numbers remaining in service with other nations will far exceed the Rafale.
In all the excitement you may have forgotten that India is being offered the Gripen IN which is tailor made for India, according to the SAAB website. It is not the normal NG that we are getting. So put that down into ‘not in production for vendor nations category’
Seriously if you are looking at the Eurofighter and RAF threads in this forum and forums elsewhere a large number of Brits would rather have more Litenings than Typhoons. We had one poster wanting to pull out of the EF commitment. The Typhoon is an air superiority fighter, and India is needing a Strike aircraft more than anything, we already have the air superiority aspect covered with the MKI and the future PAK FA.
Well from the comments above, we know who is misrepresenting the facts, the Gripen IN is not included because of your bias against LM. 22 years and I have an F 35 STOVL parked on my rooftop :rolleyes:.
ante_climaxIts going to be easier with Rafale or Typhoon to choose and find upgrades because there will be other Air forces operating the bird. ofcoz its going to add expenses because you need to keep the aircraft good enough according future standards. but it will be more tougher to find upgrades for F-16 ourselves.
Oh really, even the EF partners are iffy about future commitment to the EF. And the Saudis and other Gulf countries have lotta cash that they change aircraft at will ( look at the UAE looking to get their more than decent Mirage 2000-9s replaced with Rafale )
It is quite probable that IAF alone will operate nearly as many F 16s as there are Rafales. U.S.A will not retire it till 2025, while some countries are upgrading older F 16s with the latest block ones and not the F 35s. And these old planes are going to other countries. So F 16 is going to be flying in large numbers for the forseeable future. And by 2040 India will be an economic superpower which will be able to retire its MRCA fleet. I do not think there will be any ac doing added time like the current Mig 21s in the future.
F-16 is not a 25-30 yr worker. most air forces will start retiring them when IAF will be still inducting them. And i dunt think India will have to bear the development expenses for Rafale future subsystems.
And by the time India starts inducting rafale in big numbers, it will graduate out of college.
Most forces, You mean USA and the JSF partners ? Many of them who do not operate the F 16 in the first place, like the Brits. There are still going to be many falcons, even advanced variants flying around. Israel is going to keep their new F 16Is even when the JSF enters their service. Oh see the HAF thread they got they new F 16s now 🙂
We are going to pay for future upgrades of Rafale and Typhoon, while the Falcon already have them all. So do the SH.
ante_climaxAin’t this the ship that was documented by the Discovery guys while it was under construction :D. I fell in love with super carriers after that programme.
ante_climaxPoint here is that the Russians have been screwing us a lot over the past year or so. Eversince Putin stepped down it has been the case. I think Russia is going closer to China and may be its because India is moving closer to the U.S. Anyway we only have ourselves to blame for our over-dependence on Russians. We should have seen it coming after the Yetsin Era. Soviet Union for all her ‘evil empire’ tag had class. Even more class than America in certian aspects. The current Russia has none. It threatens Europe with gas (something the USSR never did even at the height of cold war), screws its old friend India and makes up with China.
Still looks like Russians are happy with their regianed status as a major power, and I cannot blame them. I blame us Indians though, the delusional lot who still think Russia is Soviet Union. Increasing prices is one thing, lack of delivery is another.
Also going back on the induction of Brahmos as promised, the list is now rather long. I hope we won’t take it for long. Please Mr. Singh Show some Political spine.
ante_climaxDoes anyone know anything about the prospective Brahmos 2. They say its going to be Hypersonic. Will it be possible to intercept a hypersonic cruise missile ?
ante_climaxScooter said: The Rafale on the other hand is not as mature and is expensive………..
That’s well and good, but it also shows that Rafale has room for growth. F-16IN is pretty much maxed out; how are you going to grow or improve it over the next three decades?
To me, the difference is between hiring a 50 year old construction worker and a 25 or 30 year old worker; one is going to be viable a lot longer than the other.
More Potential for growth will also mean more expenses in the future. India has a long history of upgrading aircraft on its own. So if the F 16 upgrades are not going to come from Lockheed in 20 years am sure we can do it ourselves. 😀
With a wee bit of Israeli Help 🙂
The difference is like a 25-30 year old worker at his prime (f 16) and a 12 year old (rafale) who we have to pay for school and college for his future and evolution !
ante_climaxI hoping and praying that the F-16IN proves to be as expensive as the Block 60ones they sold to UAE, but I’m not sure if they included the development cost in that price as well..those Block 60 Desert Falcons were priced around $ 80 million apiece !
If so then the Rafale will be Dollars 100-110 a piece, charging us for the new AESA radar etc.
ante_climaxHow much do you think the UAE Mirages will go for ? If they are affordable and we don’t go for them, it may be a strong indication that we are going for a similar single engined platform in the MRCA.
Nice information about the MIG 29 there. Are the engines being replaced/upgraded in this MLU ? I thought the Fulcrums had BVR capability anyway ? Is there an HMS upgrade ?
ante_climaxNo problem for gripen either..
Yes. Would rather see the Gripen win if the Falcon don’t. 🙂
ante_climaxBy some peoples logic here, once you purchase most of your hardware from one or two specific suppliers, you are tied to them for ever. That India’s realistic choices are Mig 35 and Rafale only.
I beg to differ. What if the government is willing to pay the logistics price as well and is willing to shift to American types. It certainly seems the case with multiple deals.
India for example operates many IL 76 types including the transport, the Tanker and now the AWACS platform, Yet it is considering an Airbus (European but still see the shift) platform as its next Tanker. So where is the logistics issue there ?
It is a huge order which could reach up to 200 planes or more. 18 billion is the figure currently touted about, and I am sure F 16 with the logistics setup will still be cheaper than Rafale.
Btw, what commonality do the Rafale have with our fleet, The Magic inventory is outdated and will be retired, and the proposed ASRAAM can work with all the competition bar the MIG. And we don’t have any MICA inventory as of yet. As per Wiki (dunno how accurate) the block 60 F 16 can use the MICA. It can also use the Israeli Python :). F 16 can also use the LITENING targeting pod used by IAF.
The only aircraft which has a viable logistics and commonality claim is the Mig 35 which can use existing R 77s and R 73s and other Russian weaponry. Will allow a greater deal of customization and integration of parts shared with the SU 30, Tejas, Jaguar and Mig 27 upgrades.
Rafale for me has a good chance with full ToT and general goodwill in the IAF because of their love for Mirage 2000.
ante_climaxThe Gripen Demo supercruises!
“The flight was conducted over the Baltic Sea, my altitude was 28, 000 feet and the speed achieved was above Mach 1.2. Without using afterburner I maintained the same speed until I ran out of test area and had to head back to the Saab Test Flight Centre in Linköping.”
just hope it´s not to late for gripen in IAF…
How much load was it carrying ?
ante_climaxNope. Production ended when India decided to change its stated requirement (which fitted the Mirage 2000 exactly) to one which would be very difficult for the M2K to meet. There were no other orders. There was no choice about ending production. The only decision was whether to spend the money to keep the line in existence, but idle, in the hope that another customer would come along. For India, that would have meant keeping it idle for at least 5 years – just on the off-chance.
BTW, nobody has bought Qatars secondhand but very well-maintained M2Ks. Are you sure there are plenty of potential customers?
India was interested in the Qatari Mirages but couldn’t agree on the price. The IAF may bid for the 60 UAE Mirages though.
ante_climax. which IAF does not possess, anyway. They don’t even have freakin Winders. Ever seen an F-16 flying with MATRA 530D, Exocet or AS-30L?
The Planned Mirage 2000-5 upgrade includes ASRAAM. Which would serve the F 16/18/Gripen/Rafale/Typhoon as well if selected. Will have to get AIM 120 C and IAF will push for the D as part of the deal.
I personally see minimum commonality between F-16 and F-35.
I think he was talking about building on the good relations with LM, if the F 16 is selected. According to the Lockheed officials the F 16 IN would have some F 35 avionics ( may be hype ).
ante_climaxAs Sergei Ivanov said earlier, the fifth generation of the test aircraft is scheduled to begin next year.
I hope he don’t mean 2010. Is it the new year yet as per Russian calender ?
ante_climaxThere is a difference between people and civilians people include military personnel as well. I only said a bit more apprehensive. But you have to admit that Russian gear is favourite among non-state actors, terrorists and Regimes with a poor human rights record. This does not mean Russia is selling it to them. Only means the design proliferation is more than European or American weaponry.
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