ante_climaxActually the first one has already been delivered. 🙂
ante_climaxante_climax LSP-3 will be flying with Radar weather it is 2032 or MMR is still a mystery but we might see the first flight by march 2009
Are the IAF demanding AESA for the MK2 ? That Ravi Sharma report just said avionics weight loss, new engine etc.
ante_climaxOk continue promoting the Euro Canards as Fifth gen Fighters then 😉
ante_climaxLMAO you guys hear F-22/35 and Typhoon/Rafale and your alarm bells start to ring. You give away your usual stealth capability bla bla and don’t even realise what the matter is! I haven’t compared capabilities so much, but pointed out the fact that the “stealth is a must have for 5th gen” is a marketing invention from LM not more not less. So calm down whinners and save your “jealously” assertions
You still have not answered me. If stealth for fifth gen is a LM hype, then why are the Russian and Chinese designs giving impetus to stealth ? :rolleyes:
The F-4 at the time the F-15 entered service came also quite close in capabilities, that didn’t make it an aircraft of the same generation… Care to bother with facts rather than crying like a hysteric woman?
The latest block teen series integrate almost everything the Rafale or Typhoon does. The difference between an F 16 blck 60 and a Rafale is way less than that between F 4 and early F 15s.
I like to see the F-22 doing CAS, antiship strike, tactical reconnaisance, nuclear strike or stand-off strikes from several hundreds of kilometers. These are capabilities too… But I fear you cheerleaders still don’t grasp the point.
F 22 is an air dominance fighter. It will blow everything out of the sky so that the F 35 can do
CAS, antiship strike, tactical reconnaisance, nuclear strike or stand-off strikes from several hundreds of kilometers
etc.
Point is that Rafale and Typhoon do not have anything over the F 16 and 18 to justify their respective prices.
ante_climaxTo be fair to him wouldn’t you be mighty hacked off if you have heard people spouting of nonsense about the program you were so closely involved in, I know i sure would.
Possibly. But its what he claims to be involved in right ? We would probably know when he posts a bit more ? Not an ideal first comment I would say 🙂
ante_climaxLet me introduce myself and present my credentials. I am a retired USAF Msgt,22 years on active duty.I was the #2 Enlisted maintenance man when the 4477th was organized under Constant Peg. My name is Don Lyon(aka “Uncle Don”) I know MiGs, period. I have communicated with Steve Davies VIA E-Mail and ‘phone, and believe what he has written to be very accurate. I only found this site today, and after digesting it for a while, realize the vast majority of you pukes dont know the difference between the pointy end of a MiG VS the sooty end. What idiot stated the aircraft were poorly maintained should have his private parts dipped in Skydrol while they are still attached. We had no maintenance manuals, but made up checklists as we went along and these were constantly revised / updated. What we did have a vast supply of was TALENT.There was a lot of “reverse engineering” and late night bull sessions that pooled the days lessons learned into a program we could work with. At times we were lucky enough to talk to the previous owners / operators and pick their brains for any info we could use. The Officers were of a caliber unknown to most Air Force folks, not only the Pilots, but GCI controllers as well. Seen many of them do a lot of things their counterparts would cringe at. Same with enlisted, not just the Crew Chiefs, AGE mechanics, Avionics, just a very talented, dedicated group. Best assignment ever, no doubt about it.So you “know it all pukes” out there,keep your mouth shut concerning things you know nothing of. Questions? I’m available. Complaints? Sorry, complaint dept. is closed.
Aggression was one thing this forum was not lacking. :rolleyes: Seems like we got a truck load of it again.
ante_climaxTejas needs a new engine only. Radar integration is proceeding alright.
New Engine, modifications to house the new engine etc. and also better avionics and weight reduction according to IAF. But good to know radar integration is proceeding well.
ante_climaxWhile I won’t be calling any of you anti-Indian. The indigenous fighter industry is essential in the long term. The Russians are much less reliable than they were before and buying American and European stuff do take away a bit of strategic maneuverability in international politics.
It is in India’s long term interests to have the LCA ready and working. Despite the problems so far I am optimistic that the MK2 version of it will be inducted in numbers.
Moving on from the LCA, the MCA or an Indigenous UCAV project is essential. And if we are to co-operate with some country I would rather have us co-operate with Israel. Israel do not sit on the moral high horse as Europeans or Americans do and will be the ideal partner. They probably won’t mind us using the weapons against Pakistan in an offensive War either.
ante_climaxIts as simple as this the French and Other Europeans are pissed off at F 35 and the Teen series winning more orders than Rafale and Typhoon respectively. And in the Case of the Brits and other Eurofighter partners, their governments may commit more to the F 35 than their own typhoon.
This is where the root of the F 35 bashing is from. People posting links and technical stuff and forgetting that all these countries who chose the F 35 must have done competitive analysis themselves with their top scientists.
All i can say is this. Best of luck with your UCAVS, you will win more orders with them if they are better than their American counter parts.
ante_climaxnow your American side is showing..the Rafale will out-do any USAF or USN teen series fighter with its mix of Spectra, OSF, MICA, RBE2, high T/W ratio and superior agility and sensor fusion..the Mirage-2000 itself used to be more than a handful for the F-16 in European exercises, leave alone the Rafale..
And no orders to show for it. Probably will not even touch the 300 mark in unit production :rolleyes:
As for my American side showing. Yes I am a bit biased as well towards the American jets. I hope this deal paves way to greater co-operation between the two nations militarily and strategically.
ante_climaxBecause LM says so. Was the F-117 of a different generation than the F/A-18 despite stealth? No! People refer to Rafale or Typhoon being of the same generation as the F-16, F/A-18 etc.. So which generation does the Mirage 2000 belong to? It’s obvious that the stealth is a must have for 5th gen is just a marketing trick of LM trying to sell its products.
While stealth is significant, a single technology or capability has never been a defining factor for generations (well excluding prop -> jet). Stealth was required for the F-22s missions and therefore it have it. It was for various reasons not a requirement for Rafale or Typhoon and LO treatments were seen as good given the other requirements.
Jealousy has no limits at times. If Stealth is not a feature of Fifth Gen Aircraft then explain to me this. Why is stealth the corner stone of both the Russian PAK FA and the Chinese J-xx. Surely if it was all hype these extremely practical nations wouldn’t have gone for it. The Europeans were busy developing their 4++ fighters and missed the Fifth Gen Boat completely. And are going directly to the UCAV era, Which seems fair. But to discount stealth because you don’t have it is 😮
F-22 lacks IRST, HMS… So what? Neither F-15, F-16 nor F/A-18 with the exception of the newer Super Hornet pose the same level of systems integration, automation, MMI, sensor fusion, airframe design, FCS technology etc..
Stop comparing the F 22 to the Rafale. The Raptor is without Peers at the moment. The planned upgrades for the Raptor does include HMS. Rafale cannot hold its own against the teen series fighters even and has lost almost all competitions it has entered.
Used F-16A bkl 15 maybe, but not F-16IN.
If the IAF can get 30 additional planes at the same cost, i think they would take it. 🙂
ante_climaxAn highly evolved Viper, with an AESA set, built in India, wont be much cheaper than a RAFALE, with an AESA set, built… in India…
The cost diference between LM and Dassault offers to Morocco was
less than one third in today´s Dollar/Euro rate exchange, and those planes will be built in the USA, or would have been built in France.
I think the price proposal will be a big consideration in this deal, as India really needs numbers. More MKI deals with Russia may end up on the costly side as well, with them re-negotiating many deals we have signed. So MRCA along with LCA (hopefully) will be tasked with making up the falling numbers of the IAF fleet. If the price difference would mean 20-30 additional planes I think the IAF will take it.
ante_climaxViper May not exactly be cheap, It would still be cheaper compared to the Rafale. Dassault will probably charge us the R&D cost for their new radar and stuff.
ante_climaxrecent exercises seem to validate that, with Rafales scoring highly against even SHs, leave alone F-16s, albeit of a lower block than F-16IN.
I remember reading here in this very site about Rafales engagement with older block F 16s. I haven’t read anything about its engagements with the SH. Kindly provide me with a link if you can.
The principle of sensor fusion that is so integral to 4+ generation fighters is missing from almost all 3rd generation fighters that are updated with MFDs and HMS alone.
What elements of Sensor Fusion do our MKIs have. The latest Block F 16s have better avionics and Jammers. And the F 16IN is supposed to have some F 35 avionics.
According to the Code One Magazine the Block 60 F16s
The Block 60’s electronic warfare system, produced by Northrop Grumman, is the most sophisticated subsystem on the aircraft. It provides threat warning, threat emitter locating capability, and increased situational awareness to pilots. A new data transfer cartridge holds thirty gigabytes of information. A fiber-optic databus handles the throughput and speed needed for many of these systems.
Sounds pretty much like sensor fusion. http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/2008/articles/jul_08/f16-evolution/index.html
and another point would be that whereas India would pay for its F-16INs, Pakistan would get upgrades to the same level (RANGR or SABR type AESAs)for free or through discounted military aid packages, because it is bound to strive to achieve “parity” in this sphere as well..after all, F-16s are so tightly tied to Pakistan’s pride, they’d view it as an affront to see the IAF equipped with better F-16s. I’d rather that the IAF simply looked ahead, 30 years to look at whether the F-16IN would be potentially worth having as the bulk IAF fighter.
They will possibly want to get all that even if we choose the Rafale or Typhoon. Something that I regard as one of F 16s strengths is perceived as a weakness by you. Because its cheaper than the other fighters, It would be the ideal choice to order and produce in large numbers. 250-300 F 16INs and 100-150 LCA MK2s will do nicely when we retire M2ks, JAGS, Mig 27s and Fulcrums.
ante_climaxThey lack stealth 🙂 the corner stone of Fifth Gen Design. As for the various EW suites employed the, F 15,16 and 18 employs them as well. Both the Rafale and Typhoon currently lacks AESA and the Rafale lacks HMS (which it may get by the time of delivery).
You can have 2 or 3 F 16s for the Price of a Rafale. And India is facing with declining fleet numbers, Chances are that more number of MRCA will need to be inducted so this becomes a big factor and whatever advantage the Rafale has is lost when its 2:1.
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