ante_climaxLCA is hardly more then a plane in development. We have read the nice parameters decades ago, yet the development is not finished and you are already promoting it. It is heavier then planned and underpowered even by using a foreign engine. Since when is operational? I surely missed that. MKI is assembled and not made in India. It needs to be seen how well it performes in real combat. I am not that convinced that it is superb compared to its opponents. Somehow you turn everything into your position but the reality is a bit different.
There is no need to jump into a is better then anything else while you have no info but personal opinions.
LCA is already in to LSP stage and 40 MKI versions will be inducted in the next few years. MKI is made in India under license from Russia. Like i said read the article Austin posted.
The Real-Combat record of F 16 against forces with inferior aircraft,numbers and training may not hold true against a decent air force either.
ante_climaxShiv Aroor Just Flew the Gripen Again. Its his personal experience rather than a news item. I think its best read from his blog.
And here is Part 2
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/10/gripen-dream-part-2-inside-gripen-in.html
ante_climaxI love your positive attitude but to me a bit unrealistic…. Even conventional there is no way India can beat countries like China and Pakistan. Back then it had overwhelming powers and numbers but it did not eliminate countries. I doubt it will happen now the entire region in nuclear. At the moment India’s greatest fear is from the inside. Maoist rebels pose threat. According to your respected mr Singh it is the greatest problem at the moment. But there are many challenges besides that. The Kashmir area is filled with troubles. China border is a unsettled area. Tamil problem is not settled. And conventional the Indian power is at development and needs time to become better.
1. Please stop putting China and Pakistan in the same bracket. Yes China is Pakistan’s all weather ally etc. but the reality is that Pakistan is an unstable quasi military state which do not have control over large sections of its territory while China is going to be the worlds next super power. The notion of China and India fighting anything bigger than a border conflict is just a dream in Pakistani minds and a nightmare for some Paranoid Indians, that will never happen. India is building up forces in its east merely as a deterrence and to provide logistical support in-terms of border conflicts. As for Pakistan India is clearly confident of winning a conventional or nuclear war but it is not proactive and exercises great restraint, India will not fight a war with Pakistan unless with the world opinion behind it. Just know than in all the past wars India fought with Pakistan, Pakistan was the aggressor. I do not think Pakistan is stupid enough to fight India as the capability gap between the two armed forces is set to rise in years to come.
2. Maoist insurgency and Kashmir insurgency are internal matters. We have had problems like this in the past, we have destroyed the Khalistan insurgents and survived the peak of Kashmir insurgency. India is a country of a billion people, there is only so much a terrorist can kill, even if he uses a nuke.
3. China border while being unsettled is 10 times as peaceful as the Pakistani border, there is no cross-border firing or causalities on either side, the soldiers from both sides meet up and talk regularly and the occasional trespasses are because of a lack of consensus on an international border. The border situation is not as complex as it is with Pakistan and there is a good chance of it being settled through talks in the near distant future.
4. There is no Tamil problem. Tamils are fully integrated…to dig up Tamil problem you have to go back several decades. The government of India fully backed the Lankans on their operation against LTTE, and apart from some stray noises here and there, there was no problems even when Prabhakaran was killed. Indians have by and large moved on from their petty regional squabbles.
India is still license producing arms and needs to send major parts to Russia to overhaul… There is a whole new world if you talk about MRCA. You do not have a can of people that can do it all. We havfe heard about numerous problems in maintenance of Mig21. Assembly of Jaguars. I do not think that cleaning up the planes is same as mastering them. Otherwise you would not have that many problems with making LCA. There is no decent developed aviation industry that can handle those problems. You can list up hundreds of factories or plans but the end result is that there is no plane flying that meets the standards of today.
Did you read that article posted by Austin? We are not sending major parts like engines, radar and other structures, they are assembled and overhauled here. The word ‘overhaul’ is used a bit liberally there by RIANOVOSTI what they mean is the next phased upgrade of the Su 30 MKI platform, which may include an AESA upgrade of the BARS. There are several components which are sourced from Russia, this like Teer pointed out is because IAF wanted the jets to be in service by 2015. License production and ToT do not mean you can build your own MKI the next day under a different name. That capability have to developed in house and we are doing just that at the moment.
The MKIs for example exceeds anything in the Pakistani arsenal. They are flying and are being made in India. The LCA when it is out will be more than capable than any Pakistani fighter other than the Block 52+ F 16s.
ante_climaxThe government is there to ensure that the basic needs of the people are met and served to the people, they are not the Country. If a Citizen of a country sees that his country is doing evil by way of its people, it is his duty if not right to stand up against that government.
Lovalty of any citizen of any country is 1st to the country and at very last to the government that runs it.
If in history we thought like your suggestion, we would have never thrown off the yoke of the British Raj instead being subservient to them till date.
Maybe you would prefer this?
You gave examples in history where India has fought against outside agressors but you forget the one big example where a citizen teacher of a country saw things were not correct with the government and king and conspired to over throw him and thereafter kick out the transgressors.
You give an example of the NAZI party and then say few comments after that the workers in the governemt whould not question the leaders instead follow them blindly, do you not see the irony?
Seriously do you think before you type? The people you discribe that work for the government and do not challange the government have mis placed loyalties.
By the way when did Santhanam run a underground nuclear network?
You are making the wrong comparisons. Modern India is a Democratic Republic that is a democracy governed by a government elected by the majority and governed within a specific set of rules. The examples you mentioned were about dictatorial or monarchical regimes, democracy gives the people the right to change a dysfunctional government in India’s case every five years. The current government getting a higher majority than the last government headed by the same party means the people of India do believe that this government is the best for their country. This is why I say an elected government is above any scientist or military men who may talk rubbish when sitting on the outside.
No anyone can challenge the government, it is their right to do so. But it is condemnable that some one who worked for the government all this while, who did not go public during the aftermath of the Pokran 2 tests, coming with all this bull**** now. Look around the world how many Nuclear scientists, secret service men etc. came up against their former employers in other countries ?
It is time we put in a law where every scientist who works for the government in nuclear and weapons programs should not disclose details (whether false speculation or true details) without prior permission from the government. If they do it should be treated as treason and imprisoned. Santhanam can speak now because there is no such law in existence at the moment.
ante_climaxI do not think that more and more make IAF better. It is not that big yet. It has to remove the outdated planes and get better trainer aircraft. The next decade will be induction time. A long learning curve cause whatever they buy as MRCA, it will need time to get it and to master it.
About being something to be taken serious… Well, There are three big players in that area and all three have nukes and decent weapons. There is not much to achieve anymore. India can buy 1000 MKI’s and still stay the same. I wonder how they will keep them in the air cause getting Russian planes in one… Maintenance is two.
All wars do not turn Nuclear and India will need to keep its qualitative edge over the PLAF and PAF in the future as well. The number of squadrons will also help IAF guard India’s strategic interests. Sukhois are going to be stationed in the Andamans and may be in future in the Maldives.
It won’t take long for India to master MRCA as we already operate 4.5 generation fighters.
ante_climaxIndian Air Force confident of combat capabilities: ACM Naik
HINDON: If you thought IAF despite being one-third the strength of the Chinese air force could not hold its own, cast aside any such doubts. Air
Chief Marshal P V Naik says IAF is quite confident of its combat capabilities.” Yeh chhota mota, chunnu munnu air force nahi hai. Jitna bhi strength hain abhi, kafi hai. Lekhin isse zyada hona chaiye (This is not a rag-tag air force. The strength we have now is enough. But it should grow in the future),” said ACM Naik, on the sidelines of the IAF Day parade and flypast here on Thursday.
The IAF chief said though the force’s fighter squadron strength was currently down to 32-33 (despite having an authorised strength of 39.5 squadrons), it would gradually increase and attain the desired strength by 2022.
As earlier reported by TOI, with both China and Pakistan bolstering their air combat fleets, IAF now wants another 50 Sukhoi-30MKI multi-role “air dominance” fighters to cater for any contingency on both the eastern and western fronts.
These 50 new Sukhois will in addition to the 230 of these twin-seater fighters already contracted from Russia in three deals worth upwards of $8.5 billion. IAF has already inducted 105 of the 230 Sukhois till now.
In its quest to emerge as a “strategic aerospace force”, IAF has embarked on a major modernisation drive, which ranges from Israeli AWACS (airborne warning and control systems) and aerostat radars to American C-130J `Super Hercules’ heavy-lift aircraft and Russian Mi-17-1V helicopters, as also additional mid-air refuellers, quick-reaction surface-to-air missile systems and the like.
ante_climaxIAF must have safeguards in place first, says Antony
Special Correspondent
NEW DELHI: Defence Minister A.K. Antony said the Indian Air Force will have to put in place safeguards and operational details before it gets the go-ahead from the government to fire in self-defence at naxalites.
“After carefully preparing safeguards and operational details for self-defence, we will give operational clearance. The IAF will be informed when we give permission,” the Minister said on the sidelines of an international flight safety conference here.
The Minister said the government did not want to use the IAF for combat operation and that there was no proposal to deploy armed forces in anti-naxalite operations.
The government, he asserted, was clear that internal security remained the primary responsibility of the State governments and the para-military and the Centre would extend them required assistance.
ante_climaxAs I said before, in Asia, India and Thailand have carriers, and Japan and South Korea have helo carriers, that the USA doesn’t complain.
None of these countries bought a carrier and said its for a Casino and then changed their plans breaking contracts. China could really do with being honest.
ante_climaxThe next funny situation will be with regards to what fighter the Chinese will operate from the Varyag. The Russians have dumped plans to make upgraded Su-33s and are going with the MiG 29-K/KUBs.
Can anyone see the PLAN going for the MIG 29-K ? Or will they build their own carrier capable J 11 B ? Which will be a bit hard because they have never operated a carrier and have no experience building a carrier capable fighter.
ante_climaxAnd secondly, the US is very careful with RCS relevant technologies – I presume the same would apply to exports to India as well in recent days. For instance, the US asked Japan for a lot of money merely to talk about JSF specific tech – the presumption being that even discussing detailed tech specs of the JSF was worth that much.
No one is forcing India to buy U.S hardware. In a competiton like the MRCA the impetus is on the supplier and not the buyer. I am sure the RCS of the proposed Indian SUper Hornet and Super Viper were given in the 1000 page dossiers Boeing and LM supplied and which the IAF has evaluated. If the IAF is not satisfied they can buy from other manufacturers or ask Boeing/LM to come with a better deal.
ante_climaxYou are simplifying it a bit… The French and Italians have a century old industry… They protected it and developed it slowly. China uses warpspeed to come to the same level in less then a decade. Let us put it in Indian variables… When India had Marut… What did China have? Nada. When India was assembling decent modern aircraft the Chinese were still producing (illegal) Mig19 copies (or even Mig17 copies) cause they could not produce a decent Mig21F copy. Now just a little more then a decade later… India still is licence addict while China steals, invents or whatever. But it is atleast capable of doing it. You may not like it but it is the reality. We do not know the quality but after making a “FC1” out of super Sabre program and “J10B” out of whatever we can give them some credits. Did you predict this? I didn’t. But degrading it to something laughable is not correct.
So let us not try to make this a typical flame but look at the facts. You can better steal a good idea then waste money on a bad product. I do not hear anyone blaim Israel for having copied a Mirage. I see.
I am not degrading any of China’s achievements. I am just saying it what it is ‘copies’. I do not think the J-11 or J-10 not being an indigenous design will have much impact on their efficiency during war. Just merely saying that Chinese defense sector do not give a damn about IP rights. Could India have copied designs as efficiently as the Chinese do, I am not sure either.
Israel copied a Mirage because France backed out from their contractual obligations. How many designs have China copied (I do not consider the J 10 a copy it is a design china bought with hard cash and other incentives) over the years. The Russians beat the Brits in billiards and got the Rolls Royce engines for their Mig 15s but they built the airframe on their own. Historically no country has ever copied as much as China.
Now as long as you accept the Chinese designs are mostly illegal copies, there should not be a problem. I am not talking about capabilities.
😉
ante_climax– I don’t think that Israelis have shown any more willingness to accept the right to exist for Palestinians, why do they expect different treatment?
– even people without any Jewish ancestral background or lineage who have formally converted to Judaism, are called Jews. That means any Billy who has converted to Judaism suddenly can claim Palestinian land. What kind of freaking logic is that?
– And finally, why should Israel’s secure existence be a problem of the whole world? I personally don’t care about whether Jews have their own state, why should everyone support it? There are countless other ethnic groups without own state, including almost 35 million Kurds, do you care?
1. The Israelis have tried their bit especially under Sharon and Olmert and did not get a favorable response. Sadly Sharon had the stroke and Arfat passed away or I believe much of the issue may have been solved by now. Right now the Palestinians do not even have a single leadership they are fighting among themselves who should Israel talk to. I can understand why the Israelis are now putting peace down the list of priorities and pushing towards settlements.
2. The number of these people you say who without Jewish heritage and converted to Judaism are relatively low compared to the Jews with Jewish lineage who do not reside in Israel. If they are to go to Israel I believe they would need even more settlements ;).
3. I am not saying it is a problem with the whole world. Actually it was a problem for the East and West at the end of the second world war because the people ones sent to labour and concentration camps going back to Europe claiming their original homes would have caused grave social unrest. I personally do care about Jews because I know stories about their plight from my grandparents. I am from a small state in southern India, we have had a jewish population here for centuries, their numbers soared during the second world war, most of them have migrated to Israel now, but there are still ones who stayed back. They are the most persecuted set of people in human history. And yes i do care deeply about their right to have their own state.
ante_climaxAnyone who thinks that everything the Indian government thinks & decides is good for the country is actually a traitor to this country.
The actual traitors are the ones who do not believe in an elected government and glorifies the scientists, military etc. I am sure you would be happy if some military leader took over.
Wow! From where did you get that? According to whom? Your dictionary?
This is a fact people who work for the government do not come up against the government and talk rubbish. Especially nuclear scientists, you have ur Santhanams and A.Q.Khans who do otherwise.
ante_climaxMaking exact copies of flankers and calling the J 11B is a lot different from copying an idea or a system like Renassiance or Industrial revolution.
That is more akin to introducing modern methods of production which was involved elsewhere.
Did the French steal the deisgn of a gun the Italians gave them for licensed production and market it as their own ?
ante_climaxI wholeheartedly agree. Therefor I don’t see what’s the BS with painting Israel as victims. Israelis fight for their expansion, not for their very survival.
During the early years Israel did fight for survival. And when Iran has a nuclear program and has a President who talks about wiping Israel of the face of the earth, and holding holocaust deniers’ conferences, Israelis have every right to feel threatened.
Israel is still a small piece of land despite its military power, It will not take many nukes to destroy it. So yes i do believe as long as Iran has a nuclear program it is still a fight for survival for the Israelis.
How can Israel negotiate with people who won’t accept its right to exist ?
Sign In
