And how did they repel all the foes you mention?

With their armies of course. There are a few points.

1. The Cholas were at their Prime during these conquests but the Chola nation was in existence for several hundred years before they gathered that might.

2. Skanda Gupta inherited a wealthy empire which was several centuries old as well. The Guptas became prominant during the time of Chandragupta I who used diplomacy to cement his empire rather than wars.

3. Independent India is only 60 years old. Our time will come, now is the time to build the nation.

Ok before we go any further pray tell me what you have given to the country? I would be surprised if you even declare your full income to the Indian government.

Well done must be good on the pedastall you have installed your self on so far on high, well done for comparing some one who has contributed to Indias security and growth to a dog. You must be so proud.

He was a scientist in a government organizaiton. He was paid to do his work (when some one is paid to do his work, I do not think anyone owes him anything for doing what he is paid to do). The nation has honoured scientists who have done their work and not cause controversies like Abdul Kalam.

Firstly I believe you should ask to be compensated for a lack luster education.

So are you and your fellows qualified nuclear scientists specifically working at pokrahn during the 1998 tests?

For the nth time Nuclear scientis only care about who’s **** is bigger and can hardly talk much interms of detterence. If you read the posts in the thread most streategic analysts have concluded that our current level of detterence is enough.

Why do we need nuclear commerce? Russia and France would have been more than happy to provide us with the nuclear security we would have needed, we did not need to sell the soveriegnty of the Republic of India.

Russia and France were there before the Indo-US deal and IAEA waiver did they provide nuclear commerce we are getting now ? No ? Because IAEA waiver is necessary for them to give us Nuclear tech. We are not selling soverigninity or anything, there will be tradeoffs in diplomacy. Do you want every country developing nukes because they are soverign ?

Again your ignorance knows no bounds, but as we say empty drums make the loudest noise.

To be honest I have blissful sleep every night, and so do many British citizens, and you know why that is? Because we know that very few countries in this world would test the British Armed forces by attacking Britain.

I sleep easy at night knowing that should anyone try anything on the UK they will always be worried about getting a fitting reply from all or one of the 4 trident submarines some where in the world.

The very reason the US and UK became empires and grew economically were because of their might, not because they were economically strong.

I envy your ignorance, the world and life must be so wonderful in your cotton wool wrapped little utopia.

You do realise that through India’s and the Worlds history India has been a economic super power on more than one occasion, do you know why it still got conquered? Because it did not have a strong enough military to defend the wealth.

And because several times in history Indians were so blinded by their own personel wealth that they were willing to sell of to the transgressors.

No you sleep happily because Britain no longer has any enemies other than some Afghans wielding RPGs. At the height of the cold war during many situations most people in the West and East lived in genuine fear of Nuclear War.

Do you know that even during the cold war, after the euophoria of Nuclear weapons testing and production, both sides concentrated on winning a conventional war fought in Europe.

It would be good if you study your history a bit. The might of the Magadhan Army is believed to be the reason why Alexander did not to pursue his invasion further. Have you heard about Skanda Gupta of the Gupta empire, he has repelled the Hunas (or Huns) during the time when even Rome was threatend by them. Then you have the Cholas who conqured Sri Lanka and much of present day Indo-China. Indonasia etc. All these empires had enormous wealth through trade.

When comparing America to India, you have to also know that the Americans benefited a lot from long periods of steady economic growth and not messing in world affairs. Only after World War One did they really build up millitarily. And even during the second world war, it can be argued that its Americas industrial might that has helped her.

What makes you think that the “unilateral moratorium” would stop India from testing in the future when its National Interest demands that a weapon ought to be Tested ….

There was a tacit global Moratorium on testing until 98 when we tested our devices …..

Two reasons.

1. The Current government and main opposition (which conducted the tests) say the tests were successful, we have mastered the TN weapon and no more tests are needed. In the future governments are going to be headed by these two parties or the Sinophile left which hates nuclear business as a whole.

2. National interest demands as you say will arise if and when Pakistan or China tests. Pakistan has no need to test without India testing and China do not need to test as she has perfected technology. India also claims to have done this.

from then PPP of around 1.6 Trillion USD in 1998 to about 4 Trillion USD in 2007 ….. That was the economic performance in about a Decade in face of the economic sanctions …

“without consequence” ? well yes …..

Actually most of the sanctions were lifted during early naughties and like I said our economy is more integrated into the global economy now. There are a lot of other programs which suffered like the LCA for example. It doesn’t help that the LCA still uses an American engine, the MRCA may well be American or having American components, Some of the Navies new ships uses GE power-plants etc.

This fact itself would ensure that countries,specially, ones under going economic recession, would think hard about the effects of economic sanctions with one of their major trading partners …

Europeans may be but Americans when it comes to these things, will always sit on their Moral high horse and judge, even if its economically nonsensical.

Santhanam on a Chinese payroll because Santhanam wants India to test and Perfect its MT Device to provide efficient deterrence value against China …
Hmm …

Actually as far as China is concerned India having TN or not does not change anything. It is nonsensical even to contemplate China considering waging a full-scale war with India. TNs and fission devices do not come to fore in strategic maneuvering and border conflicts that may arise in the future. An economically robust India boosting its conventional weapons and infrastructure is more of a threat to Chinese plans in the region than a weaker India with TN capability.

And secondly, even if the Nuke deal were to be completely called off, it wont be the end of the road for India or have disastrous consequences for India.
As far as power generation is concerned, the Govt is on track on utilizing the hydel power generation capacity available , re : NHPC recent expansion ..
Gas is also a viable option, and moratorium or non moratorium, nothing can stop us from meeting our power/energy needs from Iran.

In this ‘climate’ of climate change relying on Hydral Power alone is rather foolish. And Iranian gas pipelines coming through Pakistan is possibly the most idiotic thing anyone has ever envisaged to meet our energy needs. Just look at Europe and how Ukraine and Russia have the Germans and others by their balls because most of their energy comes through Russian Gas pipelines going through Ukraine. In Iran you have a rouge states which may go to war with Israel or the U.S in future and in Pakistan you have your Sworn enemy and moreover one of the worlds most unstable countries.

Do you really want to give Pakistan the opportunity to take away your energy supply at times of conflict ?

Santhanams various opinions and his own thoughts with regards to the matter hold no value, but an ex-american bot and now swedish bots value are of ultimate “strategic” value ….

It has very less value when half of the scientific authority and whole of the establishment is denying it. He either has ulterior motives like I stated or is looking for his 30 seconds of limelight and fame before he rides into the sunset.

yeah, reason why you had to remember them pomeranians while speaking about the views of an eminent nuclear scientist eh …. ?

Good Scientists usually do their work and keep quiet, that’s the norm especially when they work for governments. Good dogs stay alert and attack or notify you about the presence of a trespasser.

A noisy dog and a noisy nuclear scientist with a dissenting voice are both intolerable.

If you really did think about your quoted proverb, you wouldnt quite keep dissing Santhanam and his stance w/o knowing the specifics of the whole strategic scenario …

and the reason for “accusing” you of being an american bot is because after going through your posts one can easily figure out that in your payrolled view, the Indo-American Nuke Deal is the next best thing to have happened to India AFTER INDEPENDENCE !
and that anything which could jeopardize the deal would have terrible consequences for the Nation of India !

You just assume I and others do not know the whole ‘strategic scenario’ because we are disputing a renowned scientist. The truth is that fellows at JNU and others who really know their stuff when it comes to strategy have claimed we have Credible Deterrence. They are more qualified than any nuclear scientist in matters of strategic affairs. As for my credentials I do not have any other than studying foriegn policy as a subsidiary during my bachelors.

I am more concerned about the IAEA waivers than any deal with the United States. We need nuclear commerce and the government has invested so much in it, they even risked going out of power defending the deal. And I am sure they will not change their opinion because of a few dissenting voices.

Please do try to think before you type. Do you really consider yourself to be the enlightened one as compared to Santhanams Naive protagonist?

Only when you have the arms to give you confidence can you live peacefully and sleep peacefully.

By the way on who’s pay roll are you on? TATA?? Congress??

That comment and banner was aimed at you and not Santhanam. It is because you seem to be insecure about China more than people who live in India. You should be more worried about the security situation in Britain.

Actually it is the other way around, its when you do not have confidence in your conventional arsenal that you pursue TN weapons and larger number of warheads. This is exactly why Russia is still testing new ICBMs, SLBMs etc, while modernization of their conventional weapons move at a slow pace. I believe we can hold of China by conventional means, and that TN capability whether we have or not is redundant as a deterrent.

I am on no ones payroll. I want my country to concentrate on economic development for the time being, after all its the superior economy and not the the superior military which won America the Cold War.

I am yet to see some one explain to me about the inconsistencies on Santhanam’s view about India possessing Credible Minimum Deterrence from his two interviews I pointed to in my last post.

You speak as if YOU are the Final authority in GOI !
Pray tell us on what basis can you profoundly make such a statement.. !?

On the basis of the government top brass saying there will not be further tests or reviews.
On the basis of India’s unilateral morotorium on tests.

It is quite obvious from K.Santhanams statements that he would like India to further Test and perfect deterrence based on the MT category …

I dont think that can be called being on a Chinese payroll….

However going buy the vast amounts of posts from you w.r.t the MMRCA threads, it sure seems that YOU are on an American payroll.

@ your bla bla abt IAEA: If India were to test again, we’d loose the so called “newly found recognition” and the “breakthrough”

well, if the Nuke deal were to be called off, it wouldnt be India who would suffer as much, but surely the Western biggies who’d loose out on Multi BILLION dollar projects in the Indian Nuclear Power Generation sector….

Also, talk of Economic sanctions also doesnt Hold much water …
India is Well Off Economically, we managed ~5% GDP growth even during these recessionary times and things are looking only bright from now on….

Again the party getting the damage would be the Country imposing the Sanctions….

We weathered the 1998 sanctions but they were not without consquence, we are much more integrated into the free market now and will have a bigger economic impact. I was saying Santhanam was on Chinese payroll, I do not think China cares whether its India or America which suffers due to U.S sanctioning us. The fact is that we need the civillian power to develop infrastructure and industries to augment our growth any tests would put the IAEA waiver at risk.

May i ask,based on which qualification of the above two,are you dissing the efforts of K.Santhanam ?

I have analyzed various opinions and my own thoughts with regards to the matter. Santhanam is either a scaremonger or on foriegn payroll. You accuse me of the same becuase of my postings on MRCA threads ? If you paid closer attention you would know I am favouring a single engined fighter the Gripen or F 16 and am tilted towards the former, does that mean I am on Swedish payroll now ?

Your so called “Strategic Rants” too remind me of Mumbai strays …. Quite an awesome breed .. em ….

Its good to remember one’s family now and then.

You’d do well to reflect on the Malayalee Proverb that you are trying to get across … Think about it. .

I did before posting it. I guess you are just another radical nationalist paranoid warmonger from BR.

Well said.

Santhanam is the one who proved the PRC-Pak nuke nexus while working as part of RAW, served over a decade in the DRDO shepherding our nuclear plans, has BARC has his parent organization, and people on the net, with not even a fraction of his accomplishments are to judge him.

To be a whistle blower in India, requires solid guts and big brass goolies, and one has to be so well accomplished that even the establishment is afraid to take you on. Santhanam fits all these criteria.

Yes but what has he accomplished nothing. I will buy all of you a drink if the government or the next government does anything he says.

There will be no tests, there will not even be a committee to evaluate Pokhran 2.

Santhanam is working towards his own aims, whatever they may be, in one article for which i replied to he says we have deterrence in another he says we do not. The guy cannot make up his mind.
Santhanam in the interview at the top of this page. Notice he says ‘minimum part of our deterrence is fully addressed’ he do not say it is not with respect to china

Then in his interview given to Ajai Shukla of the Business Standard he says ‘“An arsenal based on fission weapons is not enough to deter China”, says Santhanam, all humour gone from his face. “A couple of 20-kiloton bombs over Beijing are never, never, never going to bring China to its knees.”’ – See it has changed now

To me it is very clear that this guy has an aim to bring India back from its IAEA breakthrough and newly found recognition. You only have to look around to see which country was against India at the IAEA and who will benefit from a setback in Indo-Western relations and economic sanctions on India. It is China, I am sure that this guy is a closet communist sympathizer who is on Chinese payroll.

Deterrence is not a subject to be discussed by Nuclear Scientists it is to be discussed by Strategic Analysts.

Santhanam reminds me of a Pomeranian barking at everyone who enters your gate. 😉 It will take more than a naughty puppy to make us test or review again.

And matt – there is a proverb in Malayalam that says ‘sometimes the naive will do more harm than the evil’. You may wonder how ? Herr Goering explained it during the Nuremberg trials.

The prototype looked so ugly, made the pilots head look like a dragonfly’s head. Now this is better and more humanish. I am sure the other HMD would have made alien fanatics believe the F 35 tech is passed down from aliens.