ante_climaxHigher wing loading = decreased agility. Simple fact and if Lockheed Martin says the earth is a plate you will believe as well, won’t you?
We will see after evaluations and when the winner is selected won’t we ?
Doesnt LMA say that their F-16IN is the best for the MRCA competition ? Why even bother with the other bids , obviously because they say so it must be!!
No they say it exceeds all MRCA requirments, and frankly I think its the most bang for the buck AC in the competition.
ante_climaxIt doesn’t because the type in question was the F-16E/F blk 60, not the non existing F-16IN.
Non Existent ? It is based on block 60 shares most of the stuff including radar. And its going to be present in Aero India 2009 that’s Feb 11-15 so it must exist.
ante_climaxits not just radar but India also wants technology and local production. thats a real political issue. there are still questions about how much TOT US Govt will allow, source codes etc. india is also not entirely happy with end user agreements which she has to sign for buying US arms. Now that US would offer technology, they would expect India to sign more comprehensive on agreement on IP, physical verification etc. there also question as to how much cuztomization will US allow.
We can always walk away and choose another type if the proposed deal is not to our satisfaction. 🙂
ante_climaxIt is my understanding that the Gripen NG will be tailor-made to customers specification, so the configuration is flexible.
That’s good. Would like a battle between the Super Viper and Gripen NG for the contract with all the twin engined gets biting dust 😎
ante_climaxoff-topic: what going to happen with hermes when she decomms?
Probably another floating musuem like the Vikrant 🙂
ante_climaxHas the Apg-80 been offered to the Indian Air force formally (i would definately want to see something on that) , I would think for NG it would be better to offer the SABR and have that developed with the work and help of the indians , atleast from a sheer buisness stand point developing the SABR would be better for NG and with india’s help (money) they could push it forward , because at some point the USAF would definately require new radars for its vipers and the SABR will cater to that market very well. Moreover for India it means no legal tangles with UAE and they can cater the SABR to there own requirments (pakistan cant get anything on the SABR from UAE for example).
Yes its offered to India formally, See for yourself here, this is the brouchure for the F 16 IN, this is what it is.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/f16/f16in/index.html
Talk about bowling one over! Lockheed says so, therefore it is true. Come on man, a little more discrimination here! Like your own sig says, “you are what you believe”. So make sure you don’t believe in BS. Despite so many posters (and very knowledgeable ones at that) explaining in numerous different ways that the blk 60 has the worst agility in all falcon models, (say nothing of superfulcrums/flankers and eurocanards), you still believe in that which goes against common sense and physics. Simply put, despite the marginally better TWR (in case of other falcon models and most other MRCA contenders are probly ahead of the older falcons), the blk60 sucks when it comes to draggy airframe and wingloading, factors that are serious drawbacks to performance.
Just take this example:
Each of these contenders have full internal fuel + 4 MRAAMs (120 types) + 2 SRAAMS:F-16blk60:
TWR = 0.96, Wingloading = 514 kgmsqGripenNG = 0.92, Wingloading = 350kgmsq (approximate)
Rafale = 0.96, Wingloading = 345msq
MiG-35 = 0.98, Wingloading = 430msq
EF-2000 = 1.04, WIngloading = 346msq
Now as you can see, while, the TWRs are all very close, the wingloading is seriously different. It’ll only get worse with CFTs. Yet, you believe that its going to play ball with the others? With a smaller nose to boot?
I am yet to see any single of your ‘knowledgable posters’ post anything regarding the lack of agility of the Block 60. Wing loading or not, Lockheed says its not affected, I am gonna believe them unless you provide me with ample proof that says otherwise. I have been asking for this in most of this thread, and more proof have been given that it do not lack agility. So unless you can prove it lacks agility please stop saying it. There is a post a few pages back comparing all the blocks and their thrust, you may need to check it out.
I agree, although gripen does tend to emphasize this point quite a bit. I believe gripens in Alaska did wonderfully well with these in a box formation. Others might have more infor.
The points is that the IAF’s ODL is different from Link 16 and is likely to be produced indigenously, hence it would be integrated into whatever aircraft that is selected.
Does the Gripen have JHMCS ? The F 16 IN will have it. And also the integration of a wide array of weapons.
ante_climaxWell, if it has to be a single seater, the Gripen seems better:
I suppose you mean single engined, as both fighters are available in two seat versions.
1) Most probly a bigger radar because of a bigger nose. Even the P5 radar was suposed to detect a/c targets @ 150 odd km iirc.
The APG 80 is a proven platform, and when will the Gripen’s AESA be ready ?
2) Most probly a smaller RCS clean
True but its unlikely to fly clean.
3) Supercruise
Under what load ? Super cruise Mach 1.2 etc is quite ineffective, this has been discussed to death in the supercruising thread.
4) Lower thrust and weight + same internal fuel = better range than f-16
from that article ‘Enhanced High Thrust Engine
The F-16IN offers the highest thrust engine in the competition, the General Electric F110-132A. It has 32,000 pounds of thrust with an unprecedented record of safety, reliability, maintainability and durability.The F110 incorporates the latest technology, including full authority digital engine control, for maximum fuel efficiency and performance.’
when you consider F 16INs internal fuel and range, consider the CFTs as well, as they are going to be flying with them most of the time. It says the AC can fly from Bangalore to Leh without IFR.
5) Better range internally means greater options and possibilities for payloads
Disagree because CFTs are going to do the job, pylons are going to be for weapons, max weight including CFTs.
6) much better wing loading.
True, but Lockheed states in an article i posted before that the aircraft retains its agility. And I believe them, they are going to get thing here for testing so won’t make sense to make such claims if they cannot back it up.
7) Excellent data link
You blow me over with that one. Excellent Data Link ? All NATO jets use Link 16 i guess so how is one excellent and the other note. The IAF has its own Datalink and that will be the one integrated into F16 IN.
Block 60 has excellent situational awareness and sensor fusion.
ante_climaxWell the Hermes has been in service for sometime now, I think they are going to celebrate the Viraats 50 year anniversery in association with the Royal Navy.
The Gorshkov was launched in 1982, so that means by 2032 will be 50 years, looks like it may also serve that long.
ante_climaxI know the Gripen showcases it. Indian Datalink is probably different from the NATO link 16 and that’s mentioned in that article Scoot posted about F 16 IN.
ante_climaxInfo on C 130 J IN was also published in that site.
The Lockheed Martin C-130J Hercules is the most advanced airlifter ever built. The C-130J combines the latest in aerospace technology with a proven, rugged airframe design, resulting in an aircraft that gives an operator more capability with greater operational efficiency.
This is India’s first experience with C-130s so the package being provided by the U.S. government is a complete solution. The package includes six aircraft, three years of initial support, training of aircrew and maintenance technicians, spares, ground support and test equipment, servicing carts, forklifts, loading vehicles, cargo pallets, and a team of technical specialists who will be based in India during the three year initial support period. Also included in the package is India-unique operational equipment designed to increase Special Operations capabilities. In addition, the C-130J Super Hercules will provide the Indian Air Force with modern and effective airlift to support a wide range of national requirements.
In keeping with IAF requirements, the US Government has offered a unique C-130J configuration modified for special mission roles. Equipped with an Infrared Detection Set (IDS), the aircraft will be able to perform precision low-level flying, airdrops, and landing in blackout conditions. Self protection systems and other features are included to ensure aircraft survivability in hostile air defence environments. In addition the aircraft is equipped with air-to-air receiver refueling capability for extended range operations. Lockheed Martin will integrate this equipment and other capabilities into the Indian configuration as agreed between the governments.
The Indian Air Force’s new Super Hercules will be the longer fuselage or “stretched” variant of the C‑130J, similar to those being delivered to the U.S. Air Force. Deliveries to India will begin in 2011. India joins the growing number of nations with C-130J fleets including the United States, Australia, Canada, Demark, Italy, Norway and the United Kingdom. The C-130J carries eight 463L pallets, 97 medical litters, 24 CDS bundles, 128 combat troops and 92 paratroops.
While the exterior looks very much like previous C-130s, the C-130J mission and propulsion systems have been completely redesigned. Primary features of the C-130J include a new digital avionics architecture and propulsion system, twin head-up pilot displays that are certified as primary flight instruments, and dual mission computers that automate many functions, allowing the aircraft to be operated by only two pilots and a loadmaster.
The net effect of these improvements is enhanced performance of the aircraft, and greater reliability of the systems and components. For instance, when compared with C‑130E models, the C-130J can provide 40-percent greater range, a 40 percent higher cruising ceiling, a 50-percent decrease in time-to-climb, a 21 percent increase in maximum speed, and a-41 percent decrease in maximum effort takeoff run.
A key to the C-130J’s increased performance is the new propulsion system. Four Rolls Royce AE 2100D3 engines, each flat rated at 4,591 shaft horsepower, generate 29 percent more thrust while being 15-percent more fuel efficient. The all composite six-blade Dowty Aerospace R391 propeller system is lighter and has fewer moving parts than previous Hercules propellers. Engines are precisely controlled by a full authority digital electronic control.
The heart of the new Hercules advanced technology is its modern flight station with multi-function, liquid crystal displays (LCD) for aircraft flight control, operating and navigation systems. In addition to four displays on the instrument panel, pilots use holographic head-up displays, approved as primary flight instruments, a precedent among military transports. The displays are all compatible with night vision imaging systems, enabling the crew to operate the aircraft in areas where special missions dictate blackout conditions.
The dual mission computers manage and automate many of the functions formerly performed by the flight engineer and navigator. Aircraft systems are constantly monitored and crews are advised of status or malfunction as required. Some of the new systems of the aircraft that are managed by the mission computers include the full authority digital engine controls, the advisory caution and warning system, automatic thrust control, computerized maintenance recording, the electronic circuit breaker system, the enhanced stall warning system, the advanced digital map, and a state-of-the-art communication/navigation suite.
The C-130J takes full advantage of the Global Positioning System and other highly reliable, automated navigation and route planning aides. This allows the cockpit crew to focus on the mission and on flying rather than on managing aircraft systems.
Lockheed Martin Aeronautical Systems began development of the C-130J in 1991 using corporate development funds. The first C-130J rolled off the assembly line in October 1995. That same aircraft, which had been ordered by the United Kingdom’s Royal Air Force, flew for the first time on April 5, 1996. Following one of the most comprehensive flight tests programs ever, the C-130J received type certification from the Federal Aviation Administration in August 1998, and deliveries began soon afterward.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/c130/india/index.html
Both F 16 IN and C 130 J IN will feature at Aero India 2009 http://www.lockheedmartin.com/aeronautics/aeroindia/index.html
ante_climaxThe only victory against the Viper was by a Greek Pilot flying Mirage and the Turks deny it thats pretty decent. Super Viper all the way
Joint technology development for international markets. Means this my friends, if selected F 16 line is gonna shift to India while Fort Worth makes JSFs.
ante_climaxThank you Jonsey, I think i did not consider the crew aspect. I stand corrected.
ante_climaxSo all six competitors are going to present at Aero India ? May as well go to Bangalore 🙂
Scooter has posted this in another thread. But its significant enough to post it again here
he Ultimate Fourth Generation Fighter
The F-16IN Super Viper is a unique new fighter sharing a heritage with the world’s only fifth generation fighters – the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter and the F-22 Raptor. Evolutionary integration of fifth generation technologies makes the F-16IN the most advanced fourth generation fighter in the world today.
This ultimate fourth generation fighter is tailored exclusively to meet or exceed all of India’s Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirements. The F-16IN is the right choice for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and is ready for integration into India’s infrastructure and operations now.
The ability of Lockheed Martin Aeronautics to incorporate the latest technologies into the F-16IN is the key to expanding mission roles and improving combat capability, therefore creating the most effective multi role fighter today. With a robust upgrade capacity and the continuous insertion of technology, the F-16IN can be readily equipped with emerging capabilities throughout its lifecycle.
The Super Viper has the most advanced technologies and capabilities available today on the international market. It is truly the ultimate fourth generation fighter with all it brings to the battlefield.
Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar
The Northrop Grumman APG-80 AESA radar is the only AESA operational in the international market today. This revolutionary all-weather, precision targeting sensor has been exported by the United States government and is defending a sovereign nation today; no other MMRCA competitor can make that claim. The APG-80 AESA radar provides outstanding situational awareness and detection; ultrahigh-resolution synthetic aperture radar mapping, fully interleaved modes of operations with automatic terrain following; and air-to-air tracking of multiple targets.Net-Centric Warfare Capability
The fusion of net-centric operations and onboard data provides a total battle space picture and optimizes mission accomplishment. The F-16 was the first multi-role fighter to incorporate a data link capability, and the IAF’s Operational Data Link (ODL) can be integrated onto the F-16IN when available, ensuring interoperability with other IAF aircraft. Data integrates through all phases of the mission – from mission planning, navigation, communication and target prosecution to return to base – transforming the pilot from an aircraft system manager to a tactician.F-16IN Cockpit – Click for Larger Image
Modern, Full-Color, All-Digital Glass Cockpit
Pilots receive easy-to-interpret information via the all-digital cockpit and helmet -mounted cueing system. The large color displays are capable of fusing data from on- and off-board sensors, reducing the workload and enabling the pilot to focus on the mission.Advanced Survivability Features
The low radar signature of the F-16IN reduces detection by enemy radars. Its single-engine design has smaller infrared and visual signature than twin-engine fighters. The internal electronic warfare system avoids or defeats the most advanced threats. Superior agility and excellent pilot situational awareness reduce vulnerability to attack, while critical systems redundancy and shielding enhance survivability.Enhanced High Thrust Engine
The F-16IN offers the highest thrust engine in the competition, the General Electric F110-132A. It has 32,000 pounds of thrust with an unprecedented record of safety, reliability, maintainability and durability.The F110 incorporates the latest technology, including full authority digital engine control, for maximum fuel efficiency and performance.Safety, Reliability and Maintainability
The F-16IN is the most reliable, maintainable and safest multirole fighter in the world . . . based on more than 13 million flight hours in peacetime and combat operations. Also, our support approach provides the lowest life-cycle cost and is consistent with existing IAF maintenance practices.Proven Combat and Operational Effectiveness
* Over 400,000 combat hours
* More air-to-air victories (72-0)
* Over 100,000 combat missions flown
* Over 2,200,000 ordnance delivered in combat
* Over one million operational sorties in support of the Global war on TerrorLockheed Martin understands that meeting the specific needs of each partner, the company insures that the F-16 maintains an unmatched record of program performance and mission success. India’s partnership with Lockheed Martin can provide access to the highest technology, opportunities for technology co-development, low-risk licensed production, transfer of technology, and opportunities for extensive long-term business. The Super Viper facilitates a key strategic partnership with the United States and the U.S. Air Force including joint training, logistical and operational concepts.
Also, Lockheed Martin has a proven history of successful partnerships. The F-16 is the fighter of choice for 24 nations with 52 follow-on buys, including successful international licensed manufacturing of 928 aircraft. Lockheed Martin’s worldwide industrial partnership success is unsurpassed by anyone and includes these accomplishments:
* Establishment of four highly successful international F-16 manufacturing lines
* Demonstrated ability to transfer advanced technology successfully
* Over $37 billion in offsets realized by 40 countries
* Establishment of indigenous international support systems
* Joint technology development for international markets
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/f16/f16in/index.html
That is a definitive answer for people thinking its a paper plane and the ones who were speculating about the radar and sub systems..
ante_climaxIf IAF shows the ‘will’ then it should be possible. Note that the Tejas programme has come so far largely with a “lackadaisical” treatment by IAF all these years.
They have already stated no more than what is already on order till the MK2 standard is achieved.
Actually GTRE wants to complete Kaveri engine in a JV with a foreign firm, which will involve equal risk sharing. However, it is as yet unclear whether a new engine altogether will be installed, or an improved Kaveri.
Engine news has been uncertain; note that a few months back it was reported that Kaveri will be relegated to ship turbines and is being cancelled for Tejas. But, later GTRE chief Mr. Mohan said Kaveri will be installed on Tejas this year. Similarly, there have been various reports on GE-F414 as also a JV for Kaveri — with no menion of whether IAF will choose the new Kaveri, or entirely foreign products like GE-F414 and Eurojet.
Like I said the Tejas is currently not as indigenous as we would like it to be. The engine and many avionic and cockpit components, even the ejection seat is sourced from outside.
See, as in case of licence made T-90s, missiles, ships etc. contractual “quarrels” are very likely to arise in case of licence-made MRCAs also. These will be absent in case of state-run ADA. Again, it must be mentioned that figure of 200 is a rumour only, and IAF is committed to just 126 units.
If you have noticed these occur with a particular supplier only. We will have to choose another for the MRCA, if we don’t trust the U.S go for France or Britian who have showed commitment with previous projects.
See, choice of MRCA is unfortunately likely to be based on geopolitics also. Instead of “wrangling” in favour based dynamics, the choice of Tejas will not ‘hurt’ any of the six competitors (especially Russia), while allowing us to remain neutral.
Actually India will stay fairly nuetral despite the choice.
ante_climaxLess major refits require dock time as well.
Even after negating that the final up time would be near 8-10 years for the 3 carriers in a 20 year period and 100 % availability for 2 carriers during the time frame. Its simple math really, I wish i could get more info on the time for small refits etc. so I could be more accurate.
🙂
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