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  • in reply to: J-6 in CAS role #2192759
    nastle
    Participant

    fighter jets, when they get obsolete, degrade and pick up more ground attack duties. Look at the all sorts of Mirages, F-4, F-16, etc
    CAS has higher attrition rates, easier to use something already on the way out.

    makes sense esp when the airframe was worth only like 100 hrs on the J-6

    in reply to: Nuke tipped SAMs #1787226
    nastle
    Participant

    Since some soviet SAMs on naval ships were dual purpose could the nuke tipped be used in ASuW role as well ? Same goes for nuke tipped ASW missiles like SSN-14 SIlex can they be used as ASuW weapons ?

    in reply to: Harpoon and soviet anti-missile defences #1787229
    nastle
    Participant

    bump

    in reply to: Military use of ANtonov aircraft #2192805
    nastle
    Participant

    Which conflicts have they been used as such apart from Sudan ?
    Congo maybe ? and the Syrian civil war ?

    What tactics can be used to best employ them ? a preceding strike by light strike planes like Mig-21 or Hawk jets to soften up defences ?
    Accompanied by gunship helicopters to lay down suppressive fire while they are delivering their load ?

    Have they been used to drop the “barrel bombs”?

    in reply to: Best COIN platform #2193435
    nastle
    Participant

    Nastle I think you are confusing the terms piston and propellor or turboprop. The Pucara is a turboprop, not “piston” powered.

    yes thanks for the correction

    Didn’t the African airforces use the antonov medium transports for the same reason ?
    Would they be a good platform for the “barrel bombs” does anybody know how many can be carried lets say by AN-24 or AN-26 ?

    in reply to: Iran-Iraq air war #2195294
    nastle
    Participant

    Iraq lost 140-150 fixed wing aircraft. Work your way backwards from that with claims (including claims by air defences).

    There are kills attributed in that list to iraqi mig23ml a full 2 years before iraq received them (just one example). Similarly the list of iranian claims and “confirmed” as per acig runs to nearly 300% of iraqs total actual losses…

    These are not exagartions by either official side. It’s simply third parties making up lists without access to real archives of iraq or Iran.. And when the list was made acig didn’t even have access to Iraqs list of available airframes in 1990 and accurate delivery figures in order to match up claims. But sadly the old acig database figures were never corrected and the mythology continues by being plastered all over Wikipedia…

    interesting any attempt on either side to officially come up with accurate figures ? or any other 3rd party sources which you would recommend ?
    Can Iraqi pilots even claim kills safely ? heard there were people killing former Iraqi AF pilots allegedly at iran’s instigation

    in reply to: J-6 in CAS role #2195295
    nastle
    Participant

    Just a thought, Hawker Hunters were used very effectively in a CAS role. Primarily using their four 30mm Adens.

    Now to a layperson like myself the Hunter’s four hardpoints and the photos I’ve seen of them carrying rocket pods and rocket racks make it look more suited to the CAS role than the J6. But a schoolfriend’s uncle who actually Hunters said it was pretty much Adens all the way.

    Maybe the same applies to the J6?

    EDIT: a second thought if a J6 is all (or most of) that you have, that’s what you use!

    lol True
    I think that probably is the best answer and perhaps the low level performance of this plane was superior to other mach 2 jets ?
    it would be interesting to see how many rounds of 30 mm ammo the cannons of J-6 had and if AP and HE rounds both were available

    in reply to: J-6 in CAS role #2195298
    nastle
    Participant

    Did they? Is there any evidence of Iranians j6?

    I have seen pics of F-7 but not of J-6

    even if they didn’t the point again is why was J-6 used in CAS at all even if by other airforces

    inexplicably Egypt used them way after they had hundreds of Mig-21s and even when they had access to F-4

    in reply to: Iran-Iraq air war #2195376
    nastle
    Participant

    This seems to be a general problem with ACIG lists.

    can you suggest any better sources ?

    in reply to: Iran-Iraq air war #2195382
    nastle
    Participant

    from the officers there, iraqi MiG25PDS did not go deep into Iranian airspace due to GCI limitations.
    One MiG25RB was lost in combat during the war over Iran.
    There was no mig25 pilot called “mohammad rayan” which was simply a myth.

    there are quite a few old iraq officers active on this Facebook page. you can ask them about kills.
    https://www.facebook.com/Armyofiraq/?fref=photo

    but it seems the numbers of kills were rather small. mainly the MiG25s were flown as recon and bombing planes. the interceptors seem to have had not much to do during much of the war.

    yes but a lot of airwar was over Iraq too

    the pilot might be a myth but that does not mean an Iranian plane was shot down

    I can try but no fluent in Arabic but fighter pilots are not the most reliable or objective source when it comes to this

    there are only 5 or so kills by interceptors so the list is rather short

    in reply to: Iran-Iraq air war #2195408
    nastle
    Participant

    i think by now its clearly established that the list is fantasy… kills made by iraqi planes that did not exist. iran shooting down 2-3x more planes than iraq lost in total etc…

    I’m not reading this right, the list is of Iraqi planes shooting down Iranian planes

    this list the ones in green on the acig are confirmed others are in white which are claims

    what are u suggesting ? the Iranians exaggerated their kills or Iraqis or both ?

    in reply to: J-6 in CAS role #2195410
    nastle
    Participant

    there is no evidence that iraq had J6 at all.

    but iran did the rev guards AF, besides the point main reason is to discuss the ability of F-6 to carry offensive ordnance in the CAS role

    in reply to: Iran-Iraq air war #2195686
    nastle
    Participant

    Iraqi Air-to-Air Victories since 1967 PDF Print E-mail

    Contributed by ACIG Team
    Aug 25, 2007 at 01:39 PM
    List of confirmed, claimed, and probable air-to-air victories scored by the Iraqi pilots since 1967.

    ——————————————————————————–
    Last Update: March 2011 (for the period Sep ’80 – Dec ’81)

    ——————————————————————————–

    Note: Data presented on this list was obtained during extensive research by Tom Cooper, Farzad Bishop and Brig. Gen. Ahmad Sadik (IrAF, ret.) the results of which can be found in the following books:

    – “Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988”, Schiffer Military History, October 2002, ISBN: 0-7643-1669-9

    – “Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat”, Osprey “Combat Aircraft” series, June 2003, ISBN: 1-84176-658-5

    – “Arab MiG-19 and MiG-21 Units in Combat”, Osprey “Combat Aircraft” series, March 2004, ISBN: 1-84176-658-0

    – “Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat”, Osprey “Combat Aircraft” series, September 2004, ISBN: 1-84176-787-5

    – “La Guerre Iran-Irak : les combats aériens. Vol.01”, HORS SÉRIE AVIONS N°22, October 2007

    – “La Guerre Iran-Irak : les combats aériens. Vol.02”, HORS SÉRIE AVIONS N°23, December 2007

    as well as in articles published in different magazines, like “Fire in the Hills”, “AirEnthusiast” magazine, volume 104, March 2003.

    ——————————————————————————–

    Date

    Unit

    Aircraft

    Aircrew

    Weapon

    Victim

    Country

    7Jun67 4 or 7FS Hunter F.Mk.59 Salem 30mm Vautour IIN 110Sqn IDF/AF
    7Jun67 4 or 7FS Hunter F.Mk.59 702 Saiful Azam (PAF) 30mm Vautour IIN 110Sqn IDF/AF (Inbar)
    7Jun67 4 or 7FS Hunter F.Mk.59 702 Saiful Azam (PAF) 30mm Mirage IIICJ IDF/AF (Dror Pow)
    7Oct73 70FRS Hunter 30mm A-4E IDF/AF
    7Oct73 9FBS MiG-21PF R-13 or 23mm? A-4E IDF/AF
    7Oct73 9FBS MiG-21PF R-13 or 23mm? A-4E IDF/AF
    7Oct73 1FRS Hunter 30mm SMB.2 IDF/AF
    8Oct73 702OCU Hunter F.Mk.59 30mm Mirage IIICJ IDF/AF (pilot recovered)
    9Oct73 9FS MiG-21MF al-Awsi drag Mirage IIICJ IDF/AF (Note /)
    9Oct73 702OCU Hunter F.Mk.59 30mm SMB.2 IDF/AF
    9Oct73 4FS Hunter F.Mk.59 30mm A-4 IDF/AF
    11Oct73 17FS MiG-21PFM ? 23mm TA-4 IDF/AF (Ofri KIA, Shefer OK)
    13Oct73 SyAAF/ADF SA-3 SA-3 Hunter FR.10 70FRS (pilot Conner, KIA)
    13Oct73 9FBS MiG-21PF R-13 or 23mm? “Mirage” IDF/AF
    13Oct73 9FBS MiG-21PF R-13 or 23mm? “Mirage” IDF/AF
    13Oct73 9FBS MiG-21PF R-13 or 23mm? SMB.2 IDF/AF
    13Oct73 9FBS MiG-21PF R-13 or 23mm? SMB.2 IDF/AF
    13Oct73 SyA Army Flak 57mm MiG-21PF 9FS IrAF (pilot Sluszkiewicz, KIA)
    18Oct73 8FBS MiG-17 23/37mm F-4E IDF/AF
    8Sep80 11FS MiG-21MF 1st Lt. Sadiq R-13M F-4E TFB.3/IRIAF (Eskandari OK, RIO KIA) 14Sep80 39FS MiG-23 MS 2xAAM Bell214 + 2x AH-1J IRIAA (missed)
    23Sep80 ?FS MiG-23MLA Ah.Sabah AAM or 23mm? F-5E IRIAF
    23Sep80 ?FS MiG-23MLA Ah.Sabah AAM or 23mm? F-5E IRIAF

    23Sep80 9FS MiG-21MF S.A.Razak R-13M F-5E 21TFW/IRIAF (Afshin-Azar KIA)
    23Sep80 9FS MiG-21MF S.A.Razak R-13M F-5E 21TFW/IRIAF (Jahanshahloo KIA)
    23Sep80 9FS MiG-21MF 1st Lt. Hassan R-13M F-4E TFB.3/IRIAF (damaged)
    23Sep80 9FS MiG-21MF 1st Lt. Hassan R-13M F-4E TFB.3/IRIAF
    23Sep80 IrAF 145 Missile Brigade 42 SAM battery Maj. Abdul Wahed 2 x SA-3 Il-76MD 33 Sqn. IrAF
    25Sep80 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld R-13 F-4E TFB.3/IRIAF
    25Sep80? FLS MiG-21MF witheld R-13 RF-4E TFB.3/IRIAF (Nassin Arkan Abadi POW)
    26Sep80 39FS MiG-23MS R-13 F-4E IRIAF
    26Sep80 ?FS MiG-23MF Ah.Sabah AAM or 23mm? F-5E IRIAF

    30Sep80 MiG-21MF T.al-Dinmaruf 23mm F-5E IRIAF
    2Oct80 1FS Su-20 1st Lt. Riadh Y. Yousef 30 mm F-4E TFB.3/IRIAF (Din-Mohammadi/Nouri-Bahadori KIA)
    5-7Oct80 39FS MiG-23MS ? 23 mm F-4D 71TFS,TFB.7/IRIAF (Capt. Amir Khosrow/RIO KIA)
    8Oct80 7FS MiG-21MF Maj. Nasser Arkan Abadi 23mm F-4D 71TFS/IRIAF (Bijan Haji/Ghodrat Kianjoo KIA)
    8Oct80 7FS MiG-21MF ? R-3S F-4D 71TFS/IRIAF
    9Oct80 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld 23mm F-4D TFB.6/IRIAF (Shirini/Amiri KIA)
    12Oct80 MiG-21MF O. Goben R-13 F-5E IRIAF
    12Oct80 MiG-21MF R-13 AB.214C IRIAA
    12Oct80 MiG-21MF R-13 AB.214C IRIAA
    ?Oct80 9FS MiG-21MF ? R.550 Magic F-5E IRIAF (pilot KIA)
    15Oct80 39FS MiG-23MS R-13 F-4E IRIAF
    15Oct80 39FS MiG-23MS R-13 F-4E IRIAF

    15Oct80 MiG-21MF R-13 F-4E IRIAF
    15Oct80 MiG-21MF 30mm F-4E IRIAF
    16Oct80 39FS MiG-23MS AAM? F-4D IRIAF (pilot ?, POW)
    19Oct80 9FS MiG-21MF R-13 or fuel starvation F-4E IRIAF (pilot ?/RIO Mir, POW)
    20Oct80 9FS MiG-21MF S.A.Razak R-13M F-5E 21TFW/IRIAF (pilot KIA)
    20Oct80 9FS MiG-21MF S.A.Razak R-13M F-5E 21TFW/IRIAF (pilot KIA)
    22Oct80 47FS MiG-21bis R-60 F-5E TFB.2/IRIAF (1st Lt. Mohsen Owshal OK)
    23Oct80 1FRS MiG-21MF ”Rayyan” R-13 F-5E IRIAF
    23Oct80 1FRS MiG-21MF ”Rayyan” R-13 F-5E IRIAF
    24Oct80 ?FS MiG-21MF – R-13M F-14A TFB.7/IRIAF (Hendessi + RIO OK)
    26Oct80 ?FS MiG-21MF witheld explosion F-14A IRIAF (damaged)
    ??Oct80 39FS MiG-23MS Fa’iq 23mm AH-1 IRIAA
    1Nov80 9FS MiG-21MF witheld R-13M F-5E 21TFW/IRIAF (Eqbali KIA)
    14Nov80 39FS MiG-23MS witheld R-13M F-5E 21TFW/IRIAF (Zabihi KIA)
    22Nov80 39FS MiG-23MS R-13 F-4D IRIAF

    26Nov80 47FS MiG-21bis 1st Lt. Abdullah Lau’aybi collision F-5E 21TFW/IRIAF (Zanjani KIA)
    26Nov80 47FS MiG-21bis Capt. Nawfal R-60 F-5E 21TFW/IRIAF (Abdolhassani KIA)
    28Nov80 39FS MiG-23MS witheld R-13 F-4E TFB.6/IRIAF
    16Oct80 39FS MiG-23MS R-13M F-4E TFB.6/IRIAF (Moftakhari/Koosta KIA)

    ?Dec80 47FS MiG-21bis Capt. Zeki R.550 Magic F-4E IRIAF
    5Dec80 F-5 IRIAF
    ?Dec80 47FS MiG-21bis ? F-14A IRIAF
    16Dec80 MiG-21 R-13 MiG-21 IrAF
    16Dec80 MiG-21 R-13 F-5E TFB.2/IRIAF (pilot Y.S.Raad recovered)
    16Dec80 MiG-21 flew himself into ground IrAF
    9Jan81 fighter AAM? F-4E IRIAF (Qahestani/Koupal KIA)
    12Jan81 Mi-25 12.7mm AH-1J IRIAA
    18Jan81 MiG-21 R-13 F-4E TFB.4 IRIAF
    4Feb81 MiG-23 AAM? F-4E TFB.6/IRIAF (Qoreishi/Ekhbari KIA)
    Apr81 MiG-21MF R.550 Magic MiG-21R SyAAF
    21Apr81 39FS MiG-23MS 2 x R-3S F-14A IRIAF (damaged)
    22Apr81 MiG-21MF R.550 Magic F-4E IRIAF (damaged)
    3May81 1FRS MiG-25PD ”Rayyan” R-60 Gulfstream III Algerian Government
    ??May81 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld R.550 Magic F-4E TFB.4/IRIAF
    ??May81 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld R.550 Magic F-4E TFB.4/IRIAF
    ??May81 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld R.550 Magic F-5E TFB.4/IRIAF
    ??May81 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld R.550 Magic F-5E TFB.4/IRIAF
    ??May81 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld R.550 Magic AH-1J IRIAA (Susangerd Det.)
    7May81 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld R.550 Magic F-4E TFB.4/IRIAF
    8May81 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld R.550 Magic F-5E TFB.4/IRIAF
    23May81 Fighter Helo IRIAA
    23May81 Fighter Helo IRIAA
    28Jul81 Fighter Helo IRIAA
    20Oct81 79FS Mirage F.1EQ ? R.550 Magic F-4E 62TFS/IRIAF (damaged)
    4Dec81 79FS Mirage F.1EQ Maj. Mukhalad R.550 Magic F-4E IRIAF (damaged)
    12Dec81 79FS Mirage F.1EQ ? AAM F-4E IRIAF
    27Jan82 92FS Mirage F.1EQ Super 530F RF-4E IRIAF
    26Feb82 92FS Mirage F.1EQ Super 530F F-5E IRIAF
    Mar82 MiG-21 R.550 Magic F-14A IRIAF (Note 1)
    1Apr82 92FS Mirage F.1EQ witheld AAM F-5E TFB.?/IRIAF (pilot Qazani KIA)
    5May82 MiG-21MF – helo IRIAA
    6May82 Fighter Helo IRIAA
    6May82 Fighter Helo IRIAA
    16Jul82 92FS Mirage F.1EQ witheld R.550 Magic F-4E TFB.3/IRIAF
    16Jul82 4ATTSOS/IrAAC Mi-25 witheld intercepted Bell 214C IRIAA
    ??Oct82 17FS MiG-21MF A.Salem 23mm AH-1J IRIAA
    ??Oct82 17FS MiG-21MF A.Salem 23mm AH-1J IRIAA
    ??Oct82 ?FS MiG-21MF witheld ? F-4E TFB.3/IRIAF (Moharram TO)
    27Oct82 Mi-24 AT-6 F-4E IRIAF (Note 2)
    21Nov82 Mirage F.1EQ R.550 Magic F-14A IRIAF (Note 1)
    ??Dec82 23FS MiG-23MF O.Goben R-23 F-5E IRIAF (dam. & forced down)
    27Jan83 92FS Mirage F.1EQ witheld Super 530F RF-4E TFB.3/IRIAF (Farasyabi/Saber recovered)
    ??Feb83 96FS MiG-25PD witheld R-40 C-130 TFB.1/IRIAF
    Aug/Sep83 ? Mirage F.1EQ witheld Super 530F F-4E IRIAF (Hadi/Gholamhosseini PoW)
    14Sep83 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
    4Oct83 F-14A IRIAF (Note 1)
    ??Jan83 79FS Mirage F.1EQ W.Hala’el Super 530F F-100 THK
    21Nov83 F-14A IRIAF (Note 1)
    ????83 MiG-21MF AIM-9B F-5E IRIAF (Note 5)
    ??Jan83 79FS Mirage F.1EQ witheld Super 530F F-100 THK
    ????83 MiG-21MF AIM-9B F-5E IRIAF (Note 5)
    ????83 MiG-21MF AIM-9B F-4D IRIAF (Note 5)
    ????83 MiG-21MF AIM-9B C-130H IRIAF (Note 5)
    ????83 MiG-21MF AIM-9B Bell 214C IRIAA (Note 5)
    ??–84 92FS Mirage F.1EQ witheld Super 530F F-5E TFB.2/IRIAF (pilot?)
    5Feb84 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
    5Feb84 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
    5Feb84 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
    24Feb84 F-14A IRIAF (Note 1)
    25Feb84 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
    25Feb84 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
    25Feb84 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
    26Feb84 11FS? MiG-21MF S.Auda 23mm CH-47C IRIAA (crew OK)
    27Feb84 ??FS MiG-21bis 23mm CH-47C IRIAA
    27Feb84 CH-47 IRIAA
    27Feb84 AB.206 IRIAA
    27Feb84 AB.214 IRIAA
    27Feb84 AB.214 IRIAA
    27Feb84 AB.214 IRIAA
    27Feb84 AB.214 IRIAA
    27Feb84 AB.214 IRIAA
    1Jul84 Mirage F.1EQ F-14A IRIAF (Note 1)
    11Aug84 63FS MiG-23ML 1stLt.? R-60MK F-14A 81TFW/IRIAF (All-e-Agha KIA/Rostampour OK)
    11Aug84 F-14A IRIAF (Note 1)
    11Aug84 F-14A IRIAF (Note 1)
    29Dec84 ?FS Mirage F.1EQ witheld Super 530F F-4E IRIAF (Dehqan/Saber recovered)
    ????84 ??FS Mirage F.1EQ witheld Super 530F EC-130 IRIAF
    Feb/Mar85 ?FS Multiple Fighters ? Super 530F F-4E IRIAF (pilot ?/RIO Reza’i KIA)
    21Mar85 96FS MiG-25PD ”Rayyan” R-40 F-4D IRIAF (pilot Khalatbari, KIA)
    5Jun85 96FS MiG-25PD ”Rayyan” R-40 F-4E IRIAF

    6Feb86 63FS MiG-23ML witheld R-24 RF-4E TFB.3/IRIAF
    13Feb86 63FS MiG-23ML witheld R-24 F-5E TFB.2/IRIAF (Varzdar KIA)
    13Feb86 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
    15Feb86 ?FS Mirage F.1EQ witheld R.550 Magic F-4E TFB.4/IRIAF (crew recovered)
    15Feb86 MiG-23ML R-24 F-4E IRIAF
    15Feb86 MiG-23ML R-24 F-4E IRIAF

    16Feb86 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
    20Feb86 ??FS MiG-23ML O.Goben R-23 Fokker F.27-600 (EP-IOK?) Civilian (Note 3)
    23Feb86 ??FS MiG-25PD witheld R-40RD+R-40TD EC-130E Khoofash IRIAF
    22May86 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
    10Jun86 96FS MiG-25PD ”Rayyan” R-40 RF-4E TFB.3/IRIAF (Zolfaqari/Norouzi KIA)
    2Oct86 96FS MiG-25PD ? R-40 MiG-21RF SyAAF
    ??Oct86 MiG-25PDS RF-4E IDF/AF
    17Jan87 63FS MiG-23ML witheld R-? F-14A TFB.7/IRIAF (Ghanei OK/Assl-e-Davtalab KIA)
    1Feb87 Fighter AAM F-4E IRIAF
    1Feb87 Fighter AAM F-5E IRIAF
    27Mar87 Mirage F.1EQ-4 A.Salem R.550 Magic F-4E IRIAF (crew ejected, fate unk.)
    2Jul87 ? ? ? MiG-21 SyAAF
    ????87 Hunter F.Mk.59 R.550 Magic F-5E IRIAF
    ????87 Hunter F.MK.59 R.550 Magic C-130 IRIAF
    5Feb88 115FS Mirage F.1EQ-6 witheld Super 530D F-14A TFB.8/IRIAF (Zandi&RIO OK)
    ??Apr88 5FS MiG-29 witheld R-60MK MiG-29 5FS/IrAF (fratricide)
    22May88 SA.342L 20mm AH-1J IRIAA
    23May88 SA.342L 20mm AB.214C IRIAA
    25May88 Mi-25 20mm AB.214C IRIAA
    25May88 Mi-25 20mm AB.214C IRIAA
    30May88 Mi-25 20mm AB.214C IRIAA
    ??May88 Mirage F.1EQ F-4E TFB.4/IRIAF
    3Jun88 Mi-25 20mm AB.214C IRIAA
    4Jun88 Mi-25 20mm AB.214C IRIAA
    9Jun88 Mi-25 20mm AB.214C IRIAA
    14Jun87 ?FS MiG-23ML witheld AAM F-4E TFB.4/IRIAF (pilot Solarie KIA)
    14Jun87 ?FS MiG-23ML witheld AAM F-4E TFB.4/IRIAF (crew ?)

    25Jun88 MiG-23ML R-60M AH-1J IRIAA
    19Jul88 115FS Mirage F.1EQ-6 Al.Sabah Super 530D F-14A TFB.8/IRIAF
    19Jul88 115FS Mirage F.1EQ-6 Super 530D F-14A TFB.8/IRIAF
    19Jul88 115FS Mirage F.1EQ-6 Super 530D F-4E TFB.6/IRIAF
    17Jan91 96FS MiG-25PDS witheld R-40RD F/A-18C AA400 VFA-83/USN (note 6)
    17Jan91 63FS MiG-23ML witheld R-60 F-111F USAF
    17Jan91 4 or 5FS MiG-29 witheld R-27R MiG-23ML ?FS/IrAF (fratricide)
    17Jan91 4 or 5FS MiG-29 witheld R-27R B-52G USAF
    17Jan91 4 or 5FS MiG-29 witheld R-60MK F-111F USAF
    17Jan91 4 or 5FS MiG-29A witheld R-60MK Tornado IDS AMI (Note 4)
    18Jan91 4 or 5FS MiG-29A witheld R-60MK Tornado GR.Mk.1 27Sqn/RAF (Note 4)
    29Jan91 96FS MiG-25PD witheld R-40RD + R-40TD F-15C USAF (Note 4)
    16Jan93 96FS MiG-25PD Intercepted F-15E USAF
    23Dec02 96FS MiG-25PD R-60 or R-40T/R RQ-1A Predator USAF

    ——————————————————————————–

    Note 1: During the war with Iran the authorities in Baghdad issued a total of over 70 claims for downings of IRIAF F-14s. Between 12 and 14 of these are known in the West – mainly because they were forwarded by the FBIS (“Foreign Broadcast Information Service”). Closer examination of these claims proved that only one of them can roughly be brought into connection with a loss of an Iranian F-14: this is the case of a loss of a single Tomcat near Khark Island, on 11 August 1984. This was confirmed by post-war investigation of the wreckage. All the other known Iraqi claims for downings of Iranian F-14s are posted here in order to show that ACIG.org knows about them but also that we know that they are unsubstained claims.

    Note 2: For complete background of this claim see the article “Fire in the Hills”, “AirEnthusiast” magazine, volume 104, March 2003.

    Note 3: Situation unclear due to completely conflicting reports. Iranians claimed the F.27 of Iran Asseman Airlines (EP-ANA, c/n10554) was attacked by Iraqi fighters and shot down, killing 49 aboard. The Iraqis first denied, then admited the plane was shot down, then said the plane was damaged and landed safely. Capt. Omar Goben was later credited with destroying an Iranian F.27 on the ground, using bombs, “in February 1986”. It is likely that this was the F.27 “EP-IOK”, however, which was later reported as being purposedly blown up by the Iranians in order to let the international press believe the original report – about an Iranian civilian airliner being shot down by Iraqi interceptors. Namely, the F.27 “EP-ANA” – then in service with the NIOC (National Iranian Oil Company) – was later reported as w/o in an accident (unrelated to IPGW) that happened on 4 October 1990. To further complicate the matters surrounding this incident, three days later the IrAF shot down an IRIAF (E)C-130 Khofaash ELINT/SIGINT reconnaissance aircraft. According to Iraqi sources, which do not deny the downing of the civilian F.27 on 20 February 1986, the Iranian authorities concealed the loss of the Khofaash. Instead, its crew was declared as killed when F.27 was shot down.

    Note 4: Extensive investigation of Iraqi interceptor operations during the IIPGW by the ACIG.org team, mainly conducted with the help of former IrAF interceptor-pilots, initially proved that no Iraqi pilot claimed even a single confirmed kill against any Coallition aircraft. Interviewed pilots stressed that they never fully recovered from the fact that they failed to shot down even one enemy, despite their sternous efforts to mount at least a single successful interception, and a number of air combats in which they fired missiles. On the basis of this as well as on the basis of additional evidence supplied from official USAF, USN, RAF and AMI documents, conclusion was that there is no basis for any of the known claims for downing of Coallition aircraft by IrAF interceptors in 1991. These entries will be kept in the list nevertheless as a designation of our position in regards to them, but they remain marked white. Additional Iraqi sources, however, are currently providing new – previously unpublished – information and details about various interceptions of US and Coallition aircraft. These are still under examination.

    Note 5: Because of persistent problems with the R-13 and R-13R missiles they purchased previously from the USSR and Czechoslovakia, and Soviet refusal to deliver R-60s, in 1982 the Iraqis purchased 200 AIM-9B Sidewinder missiles from Jordan (all of which were from a batch produced in 1967), in exchange for oil and two Iranian F-5Es that were previously captured intact. Sidewinders were mounted on MiG-21MFs that were modified to carry R.550 Magic missiles, because the installations for these weapons is compatible. The Iraqis claimed a total of five air-to-air kills with these missiles, including two F-5Es, one F-4D, one C-130H, and a Bell 214C helicopter. Except that they should have been scored “within 12 months” of first Sidewinder-deliveries to Iraq, exact dates of these claims remain unknown, and there is no firm confirmation from Iran. It is very likely that most of these claims should have occurred in 1983, then the only confirmed case of an IRIAF F-5E falling intact into Iraqi hands occured in December 1982.

    Note 6: The team of ACIG.org researchers obtained exclusive materials describing the interception of an USN F/A-18 Hornet aircraft by an IrAF MiG-25PD at exactly the time and in place where the plane flown by Lt.Cdr. Speicher was shot down, in the early morning of 17 January 1991. Considering the available evidence, we are now convinced that Lt.Cdr. Speicher was shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25 “Foxbat”, using a single R-40/AA-6 Acrid missile – despite explanations by other IrAF pilots we interviewed previously, that none of them would know about any Iraqi pilot to have scored an air-to-air kill against Coalition aircraft during this war.

    in reply to: Iran-Iraq air war #2195712
    nastle
    Participant

    AFAIK, only very few Iraqi Foxbats were lost..

    http://iraqimilitary.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=67

    from the same forum the discussion on the MiG-25 but I don’t see a list of kills scored by Mig-25PDS

    maybe sheytanalkebir can help us

    in reply to: Iran-Iraq air war #2196199
    nastle
    Participant

    Great insight few.

    You did forget to mention the actual excuse Saddam gave for the iraqi attack on 1980. Namely these were.
    1- Khomeini openly supporting shia islamists in Iraq to kill and overthrow Saddam (bombing of mustansiriya university in April 1980 which wounded tariq aziz amongst other attacks by iranian financed groups).
    2- regaining both sides of shat al Arab which iraq signed away in 1975 under duress (shah was funding and arming kurdish rebels.jn northern iraq and soviets cut off supplies in concert).
    3-iranian artillery and air strikes into iraqi towns and villages starting in August 1980. Iraq justified the Later attack by saying they wanted to create a buffer zone to protect iraqi towns and settlements along the border from pre meditated iranian bombardment.

    Secondary considerations included iranian exiles wishing to return to power, gulf monarchies fearing shia uprisings etc… But the primary considerations were the three above I mention. The fact that nearly 40 years after the war started this fact is still unknown to most people is breathtaking. But I suppose iraqi perspectives are so very rarely known about anything.

    With regards to the air war. The war started massively lopsided in irans favour due to.
    1- having over 300 bvr capable long range fighters. Vs Iraq having zero bvr capable fighters
    2- iraq and 90% of its strategic targets being within easy reach of all iranian aircraft. But most of Iran being beyond the reach of the iraqi airforce (and the 20 tupolev bombers would be too vulnerable to use due to hundreds of iranian bvr fighters to intercept them)
    3- both iraq and irans military was being purged at the time. In Iraq hundreds of air force officers and pilots were killed arrested or discharged due to loyalty to either shia parties or the communist party.
    4- at the outset of the war both sides had weapons shipments halted by suppliers.

    Despite the massive geographical, numerical and technological advantage Iran did not make effective use of its advantage at the beginning of the war. The internal turmoil the had was worse than in Iraq hence the lack of organisation.
    Iraq due to its massive geographical and technological inferiority at the beginning of the war was quite defensive with only fleeting attacks Deep into Iran. It was only in about 1986 that Iraq had built a sort of technological parity with Iran in the air. And the remaining two years iraqi airforce could attack and assert itself a bit more… However irans massive territorial advantage remained and could not be surmounted by iraq at all.

    Great points esp regarding the BVR equipped fighters of Iran AF,I found Tom COopers book (although a fascinating read and fills a great void on this subject ) a little biased in favor of the iranis
    Although you might add that a lot of irani pilots were purged as well but techonologically their is no comparison between Iraqi AF and Iranian AF in 1980

    when it comes to Mig-25 vs F-4E I believe the foxbat scored a few more kills than the F-4, would you agree ?

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