To go back to the copyright issue that James said isn’t an issue for academic publication.
Online publication (regardless of website type) is classed by most archives, including the UK National Archives, as commercial publication as are subscription journals (I can’t think of an academic journal that isn’t).
I eventually found their Copyright document last night and found that in Section 6.1.2 and 7.3. While there are no actual royalty fees the image library does charge a fee for supply of images even if you visit the archive and photograph the item yourself.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/legal/pdf/copyright_full.pdf
It was a few years ago that I went but there was still a fair amount there then. That was after Elliott’s first visit to the site, I don’t know about any subsequent visits.
You can see what was there in October 04 from the page on my site.
Nice one G 😀
I have a bit of a problem with these calls for standards, by people who have openly stated they have never been involved in any such projects.
What Standards?
– Holes should be dug at rate A to rate B and must never exceed rate C?
– They should not exceed depth X?
– All finds no matter how small must be recorded in situ to >5mm accuracy? That is ok with a relatively sparse sites that a few hundred years old by a relatively modern aircraft that breaks into several thousend pieces ranging from cornflake to complete engines with everything mixed up by the crash and any subsequent recovery / investigation.
– All sites must have full geophysical surveys carried out with plotted results?
The list could go on with conservation, public access etc etc.
Standards are set by who?
– Someone with relevant experience
– Someone qualified in a closely related field but with no relevant experience
– Agreement by committee
– Yellow paint :diablo:
Set for what reason (exactly)? And I am not talking about ‘to do the job properly’, I am saying why is a particular standard going to be applied to a particular situation.
Anyone who says, ‘because that is the way we do things’ needs to be asking some serious questions about their own procedures for seeking any possible increases in efficiency and effectiveness. To go back to the motoring analogy, you go to a garage an find a bloke pumping up a truck tyre with a foot pump and ask him why he is using it and not a mechanically / electrically driven compressor you would expect a very good answer or you would say something along the lines of ‘mad as a brush’.
These standards are to be monitored by who, a self appointed body (which in effect almost every professional body life began as), County Archaeologist, English Heritage, MoD?
The same applies to the matter of any possible qualification with the addition of to what level? Degree, diploma or A Level eqiv?
Report writing should in my view be part of any project, but publishing it can be a problem. As we carry out a lot of primary sources historical research in archives and would have to put that material into reports there then is the issue of copyright and royalties which would have to be overcome.
The report for my last recovery, unpublished but not entirely undistributed, ran to 27 pages with full references etc. This was approved by the archaeologist for the area. Where would you suggest any such reports for not archaeology should be published?
The only recovery I have been involved in that had ‘professionals’ present seems never to have a complete report submitted, despite some fairly thorough if a little rushed data collection (by them) including DGPS X/Y and Z axis measurements of all major parts and even components attached to these to show orientation as found. A recent query with the County SMR / Archaeologist proved that a report of virtually no use had been submitted by professionals for a dig that was over 4 ½ years ago, there was none of that DGPS data in the report.
Was it not A.W.B. as Minister for Technology who ultimately cancelled the Blue Streak / ELDO project?
The record book for 20 OTU recorded a different serial,
July 22nd 1944, SSQ, “Wellington aircraft No.X HZ262 crashed into sea ½ mile N.E. of Lossiemouth. Cause: – Starboard main plane, engine and inner plane became detached in the air during fighter evasion exercise.
Crew:
AUS427901 F/Sgt Grigg Pilot Killed.
AUS429200 Sgt O’Dwyer Navigator Killed.
AUS428291 F/Sgt Barry Wop/AG Killed.
154310 P/O Sunter Air/Bomber Killed.
913891 Sgt Pring Air/Gunner Killed.
1827419 Sgt Kirk Air Gunner Killed.”
It is very similar at the National Archives, the material may well no longer be copyrighted but you still have to pay them to use it.
I was sent this reply from the NA to an inquiry in January.
Thank you for your e-mail regarding the use of images from our archives on a website.
The reproduction of direct images of documents from The National Archives on a non-commercial website costs a one-off fee of £40.00 + £6.00 VAT. This fee covers up to twenty items, and the charge reflects the fact that website use constitutes worldwide publication.
Payment may be by VISA or MC (we supply an email link to our secure payment site). The images must be protected from download at high resolution. You can do this by watermarking, or by keeping the resolution to a level whereby the documents are legible for information and research, but are not of sufficient quality for commercial publication.
There should be a Form 1180 for the aircraft on microfilm at Hendon but as they are indexed by type and date rather than serial number finding it would be fun.
I used the Bilt Hamber stuff on an oxygen bottle that came from a Hornet and got a very good result. I also did a reduction gear and engine mount with it, the latter was a ball of rust but that came up well.
It at first looked to be a part of a bomb cradle, used in pairs on the rack to steady the load.
However since it has “to open” on it kind of says it isn’t.
It was HMCS Warrior.
According to FAA Fixed Wing Aircraft Since 1946 the aircraft survived the event.
The accident is recorded as 17th December 1954 with Sub Lt B.R. Toomey as pilot. It is described as “after landing, port wheel ran off deck into gun sponson”. The London Gazette records Toomey as a Lieutenant in December 54. He first appears in the LG 20/10/53 with a second entry 14/09/54.
It was mainly with shore units before and after this and was struck off charge 6th December 1956, the a/c was bought back by Hawker and was transferred eventually to Squires Gate where it was eventually scrapped.
After poking around online I think it is a Mk.XII altimeter, Ref 6A/1512 (according to other posts on here in the past it may also have been used on later Mk.s which had different faces on them). See the following link http://www.gbairspares.co.uk/reference/bfp.htm and click on the
The photo I found shows it is rated to 4~000ft, the hundred foot needle is covering the second digit.
As Hallgatebank and Cold Fell are so close to each other I think you may have two versions of one crash.
The crash on Cold Fell was Dakota KG502 which flew into the top of the ridge on the North Western end of Cold Fell and was destroyed by fire killing all of the crew.
For this area I would suggest you contact Jim Corbett, http://www.acia.co.uk, as he has covered this area in a lot of detail in recent years.
The problem with preserving the wreckage is that there would have to be chemical treatment which the Environment Agency and the Countryside Council for Wales would have a collective heart attack at the very thought of it.
The only way to carry out the required treatment would be to remove the wreckage from the site before returning it to the site.
Other than that the wreck will continue to deteriorate at an ever increasing rate. That is because as the corrosion progresses the alloy struture begins to break down allowing the oxidation to occurr at an ever increasing rate until there is just powder, brass and steel left.
Either way it is better to be able to visit a substantial site on the hill.
The unit’s Form 540 (Operations Record Book) recorded had the following for the loss of the aircraft.
December 21st 1941, “Blenheim Z6350 crashed and was completely wrecked on Mull of Kintyre. Sgts Orton and Gearing, Cpl Cohen and AC Woodward were all killed.”
Here are the crew details in full.
Sergeant, John Edward Orton, 1013757, RAFVR, Age ?, Pilot, buried at Douglas Cemetery, Isle of Man.
Sergeant, Arthur John Gearing, 550938, RAF, Age 22, Pilot, buried at Wallasey (Rake Lane) Cemetery.
Corporal, Robert Sidney Cohen, 655638, RAFVR, Age 26, Observer (u/t), buried Golders Green Jewish Cemetery.
Aircraftman 2nd Class, Peter Gibson Woodward, 1377654, RAFVR, Age 21, Wireless Operator / Air Gunner (u/t), buried Surbiton Cemetery.