Macedonia is not going to get any other aircraft to replace the Su-25s. Forget about it. Such a thing is forbidden under the Ohrid Agreement. You guys are forgetting the internal reasons for Macedonia to drastically cut its military like it is doing. This is all internal, not external by NATO or US.

And no Miroslav, the BO-105s offered to Albania have nothing to do with those offered to Macedonia. Germany has plenty of BO-105s to go around, so no reason for them to be realted, especially since the ones offered to Macedonia were the anti-tank and recon versions…while these 12 offered to Albania are the normal BO-105s. They are to be used for general policing duties…probably not even going to go into the hands of the military at all but of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

Ink I agree with you fully. I personally respect what you have to say and want to hear what you have to say on the subject…so if you please can…respond in the other thread I created for it.

Personally I find it hard to keep it objective when I have to respond to comments of such a level…so I am as guilty of lowering the standards here as the other members are. Thats unfortunate…but with someone like you we can have a reasobale discussion. I invite you to respond in the other thread…otherwise there is no hope for a better discussion on the subject.

since the Yugoslavia was “invented” and kosovo belonged to someone else few hundred years ago that means it is ok for the kosovars to ilegaly arm and to take it by force?

If you invaded the terrotiry, rule it as a colony for 90 years and oppress the people there…then yes they have that right.

The R-73 is helmet sight cued, so attaching a helmet mounted sight to the equipment, the oeprator would probably designate the target by looking at it. This would slew the Missiles seeker toward where the operator is looking and scan for a target. Once locked on it can be launched.

So as I said…the joinly-developed Serbo-Ruso Mk.I eyeball…You don’t seem to understand what the difference is between such a system being used ona an aircraft and on the ground…and why being used on the ground with no other system of target acuqisition…is riduclous.

You can’t hit what you can’t see and the IR return from rubber is probably very similar to soil.

You should probably submit your discovery to the Nobel committee before someone else steals it.

Yes, that despite tragic mass murders in Bosnia by all sides, it is the (Bosnian)Serbs that are seen as the bad guys and are scapegoats.

Right…but it doesn’t say anything to you about the murder of 7,000 men there?? No they probably killed themselves too…they fell off the stairs actualy.

If you want to look back at history we see many of the people we are supposed to be calling good guys wearing swastikas in the early to mid 40s of last century.

Gary…it is becoming painfully obvious that all of you Serb appolagists (you aren’t even Serbs yourselfs…so whats you point anyway??) get your information form one source and one source only…the ultra-leftist pro-Serb websites on the net. its like a broken record…Croats were Nazis during WW2…Serbs were angels. Gary…are you aware of an organization called the Free Serbs SS Division?? Are you aware of an organization called the Serbian Volunteers Guard?? The Serbian Volunteers alone numbered about 30,000 Serb soldiers who were under the control of the Germans…in addition to them also the Serbian puppet tegime which was also pro-Nazi and the Serb police which was pro-Nazi…and the reminants of these were fromed into a Serbian SS Division when the Germans were about to pull out of Serbia.

So…which side exactlya re you talking about wearing swastikas?? Of course you’ll never hear about such things from the sources you read. In their books..ONLY the Croats were Nazis…and the evil Bosnians had an SS Division too (which alsted a few months and was disbanded after the Bosnains mutinied) and the evil Kosovar Albs had an SS Division too (which actually numbered mostly Germans and from which all Albanians had deserted within the first few months). No one ever speaks of the Serbian collaborators which were actually far larger in numbers to anyone else. Why is it Gary that you didn’t know about this??

CAS aircraft over Belgrade? Prove it.

Which part of “around Belgrade” didn’t you understand?? Around doesn’t mean over…

So the “limit” was 15,000 ft and Harrier pilots and A-10 pilots disobeyed those orders. …again … prove it.

LOL…prove it!! How exactly do you know what NATO orders to their pilots were Garry?? How exactly do you think an A-10 got hit by an Sa-13 and was dmaged? I doubt he was hit while underway at 15,00 feet…;)

Did he say he was going to bomb a london subway, or nuke the US? I think he pretty much said if they try to take Kosovo they’ll take it back. How does that threaten the “world”. I live in the world and I don’t feel threatened by that.

Which world would that be BTW??

But if you run away and then come back with a cop to set things right, shoudl you take things into your own hands to get revenge, or do you let the police do their job and get justice. By taking revenge you are no better than they are. In fact you are worse.

LOL…how exactly is it “worse”?? You kill my family and burn down my house…I’m not allowed to kick you in the face??

But no mass graves in kosovo. And that figure of 10,000 ethnically cleansed is amusing. How many were armed at the time fighting for the KLA?

No mass graves in Kosova?? Who told you?? Mass garves of 75-100 people have been found…places where dozens of boies were burned have been found…oh and BTW mass graves around Belgrade with the bodies of over 800 Albanians have also been found.

No… with those figures, you are not.

Igla-S is in service and entered service in 2002. The Pecheneg also replaced the PK as the standard GPMG. The Kord HMG has replaced the Utes HMG, and many other new small arms have also entered service with various units.
They have also introduced the BTR-90, the upgraded BMP-3 has also started entering service. Full production of the Mi-28N starts next year.

BTW genius about the 60,000-20,000 reduction of tanks in 15 years… Have you heard about the Conventional Forces Europe Agreement.

The CFE applied a few years before 15 years ago anyway…and most of the tanks were moved to Asia at the time. Today…most of them are scrapped or rusting away.

As for all the other things the Russians supposedly have introduced…care to tell me how many BTR-90s are in service becasue I’m pretty sure the factory that makes them hasn’t made more than 10 examples in the past years its been around…most of them prototypes. Oh and which units btw would these BTR-90s and upgraded BMP-3s are in service??

Full production of Mi-28 to start next year??/ Wow…awsome..ater only 25 years as a prototype…

The T-90M hasn’t been available for 15 years. The force reductions means that they haven’t needed to introduce new tanks as they were busy enough putting the older models in storage.

T-90M and T-90 are two different things buddy…There are about 15 T-90Ms produced.

And without the T-55s they will be able to afford replacement tanks for the M84s in a few years, instead of never if they kept everything in service.

Afford a replacement for the M-84…from whom?? You do realise the Serb MoD has no intentions whatsoever of replacing the M-84 with anything…

Respect is earned. Not given away free for every nut ball or a hole with a grudge.

Exactly…respect is earned. Serbs havn’t earned the rspect of anyone.

The KLA didn’t have to kill people to get their message across. The war in Yugoslavia wasn’t a war of conquest by a militant Serb nation.

WHO did KLA kill?? Did I miss this…who was killed by the KLA?? Serb government keeps putting out figures like “600 Serbs killed by KLA”…bla bla bla…but forgets to mention the fact that of those 600 Serbs 590 were MUP officers and 10 were MUP informers. KLA killed people?? KLA killed no one that wasn’t a Serb police or soldier or informer. KLA even gave protection to Serb Orthodox Priests who were beign hunted down by the Serbs themselves for giving aid to Albania refugees.

Its funny…VJ kills 10,000 civilians, ethnically cleasnes 1.2 million people…and its the KLA who “killed people” needlessly. What logic!!

So the war in Yugoslavia wasn’t a war by Serb ultra-nationalists trying to get more territory?? Really?? So what was it??

WOW. Amazing. A smart handgrenade. I bet the Americans will want that technology.

Ugh…you know when 6 people are sitting around in a table and you throw a hand grenade at that table…it tends to affect mostly those 6 people sitting around it. Of those 6…3 were MUP officers and 3 were MUP informers.

So in the BBC documentary called “Moral Combat” where one of the leaders of the KLA was told of an attack in a night club in reprisal for a successful operation by the serbs shrugs and says it was a war they were determined to win, I guess you will call the BBC liars?

Ugh…no…but obviously you can’t seem to understand the magnitude of this war. KLA used whatever tacticks guerilla armies all over the world always use…and that also includes covert attacks on places where police or military soldiers “hang out”. The KLA for the most part though operated in areas where Albanians lived…and fought defensive battles to protect those areas from the Serb polie and military.

Now…how does one or two little incidents…in your mind…equate to the wholesale ethnic cleasning of all Albanians in the province and dumping them in neighbouring countries…while killing 10,000 civilians and destroying about 70% of the Kosova infrastructure doing it. its ok in your mind then that Serbs would come into Prishtina, round up people block by block in an organized manner, and send themtot he train station to be packed like sardenes and send tot he Macedonian border where their papers and documents were taken so they could never return to Kosova. All of this is justifiable in your mind?? And the past 20 years of violent oppression by the Serbs is justifiable too?? And the 1912 invasion of Kosova which killed 30,000 people is justifiable too??

Its obvious I’m wastng my time here becasue obviously you don’t have any knowledge of the region at all.

So the serb solution of sending the Albanians back to albania was the best solution all round then?

Garry…your an interesting character. Thats about the nicest thing I can say to someone like you when they make comments like this.

You like the rest of the western world assume there will be a solution… that is your mistake. I remember Madeline All(not so)Bright chastising the KLA for their treatment of the Serbs when NATO pushed the Serbs out. Do you really think these people will ever kiss and make up?

Well Garry for once we agree!! We’r not going to kiss and make up…

The NATO solution (or should I say the KLA solution) seems to be the same as the evil Serb solution. How could the Serbs not accept such a fair and balanced result?

Garry…1.2 million Albanians were thenically cleasned, driven out of their homes and 10,000 murdered. 70-90 thousand Serbs left Kosova along with the Serb Army in 1999 before any Albanian even returned back. These two events seem similar to you in magnitude or in scope??

———————-

Get your facts right man… We actually murdered 300 MILLION in BOsnia and Kosovo… We also ran 1000 rape camps and cut fetuses out of women and ate them…

Ah yes…now I remember. Thanks for the correction…

Right… If an Albanian shopkeeper sold things to Serbs the KLA considered him a collaborator and killed him. If Albanian parents let their kids play with Serb kids the KLA considered them collaborators and killed them.

Ok…thanks for letting me know. I am certain you know much better about these things than the Albanian Kosovars do.

By the way… MUP soldiers came from all over Serbia, they weren’t necessarily local guys… So how is it that some Albanian could recognize them as MUP (unless they were in uniform, which they wouldn’t be if they were off duty sitting in a cafe)? Your story is BS.

Hehe…so let me get this straight…there were no local police or soldiers in Kosova?? So 1/3 of the Kosovar population was detained at one point or another by whom?? So in a village it is not known who the MUP officers are and who the collaborators are??

My story is the account fromt eh guy who actualy carried out the attack…

But you are right on one thing…MUP guys certainly weren’t locals…they were mostly colonists brought in in the 1980s to replace all the Albanians fired from the jobs…But they had been in Kosova long enough for people to appreciate their work…

If the system proves to be effective more missiles can easily be bought.

Has the tooth fary been extra kind to Serbia Miroslav??

As for it being ridiculous…. I’d like to see Albania build something even one tenth as good. Albania has never built anything. You ar ethe last person on earth with the right to critiize serbia’s military industry, which has built everything from fighter jets to submarines to frigates to tanks.

Cause we were smart…we didn’t waste our time making sub-standard junk like Serb military equipment. We just went ahead and got whatever we needed ready-made from the Russians or the Chinese. I’m not saying we can make anything better…I’m saying we can just BUY something better 😉

That’s amazing considering Albanians are mentioned for the first time in the Balkans about a thousand years ago (1054 to be exact).

What is even more amazing is how you get into such a discussion without even knowing your dates straight. I’m assuming your number is 1043 and not 1054…because in 1043 the Albanains were mentioned as being part of the Duke of Naple’s Army that attacked COnstantinople.

But of course what you also don’t know…very obviously becasue as with all Serbs and serb appolagists you have one source and one source of info only…kosovo.com…the name “Albanian” comes from the Illyrian tribe of the Arbanasi (or Albanoi as the Greeks called them). The Arbanasi were also mentioned in 130 AD by Tolomeo and Ptolemy with their capital of Albanopolis which was located somewhere where the borders of today’s Albania, Kosova and Macedonia meet. But then again the Arbanasi were an off-shot of the Liburni Illyrian tribe and their city of Arba, first mentioned in 360 BC.

What you obviously don’t know…or refuse to understand…is that the Arbanasi (Albanoi) were just one of many Illyrian tribes…and were not a particularly important Illyrian tribe at all. There were the Dalmati, The Liburni, the Ardians, the Dardans (in modern-day Kosova), the Taulant, the Kaons, the Paion, the Mollos, the Thesproti and many others…which stretched from the Danube all the way to Arta in modern-day Greece. The Arbanasi were just ONE of MANY Illyrian tribes. Prior to the 10th-11th century…there were more powerful Illyrian tribes than the Arbanasi…so they weren’t mentioned so much becasue they were a weak tribe locked inthe mountains of Northern-Central Albania. The tribes that were mentioned all the time…were the costal tribes and the Dardans. But after centuries of Roman and Byzantine rule and constant barbarian (read Slav) assaults…most of these other Illyrian tribes become much weaker…while the Arbanais in their mountains reamined untouched…and as a result they were able to expand their rule and influence…and over the centuries the name Arbanasi (which in Albanian evolved to Arber and Arberia…while the name Albania itself came from what the Greeks called us, Albanoi) came to replace the names of the local Illyrian tribes.

Understand?? So if you don’t know what our name is and what it means…and when it was first mentioned to being with…and that the name has no meaning at all other than one of the names of the many Illyrian tribes, one which grew more powerful and thus influenced the others….than I suggest you probably not get into this argument 😉

But to begin with…1054 (using your ficticious date just for argument’s sake)…is still a good 100 years before any Serbs appeared in Kosova. In 1054 Serbia was a hamlet up in what is today Hungary.

Kosovo’s liberation from the Turks is thanks ONLY to Serbs… ALbanians fought WITH the Turks, not against htem. The only help we got was from the Greeks. Albanains might have quarrelled with the Turks over how much authority they could have but that doesn’t qualify as fighting against the Turks. Serbs liberated not only Kosovo from the TUrks but even Macedonia when they stormed Kaimatsalan in 1912. In fact, if it wasn’t for Serbs Albanians wouldn’t exist today, you would be entirely assimilated into Turks.

LOL…haha…well thanks once more for the entertaining history lessons…obviously this one is just to the same level as your attempt of telling us when Albanians came around.

To begin with…as I said…Kosova had been in revolt since 1906 and was liberated by Albanians by 1912…not Serbs. Same goes for Macedonia. Albaniasn liberated Shkup in May 1912…Serb armies didn’t come until October.

All Serbs did…was invade lands already liberated by Albanians…and fougth against Albanians and not Turks to get to them.

We fought WITH the Turks??? Hehe…man your history obviousy is on par with your understanding of military too.

We would be Turks if it weren’t for you?? How so?? LOL…we lived for 500 years under the Ottomans…we didn’t become Turks in 500 years…why would we have become in 1912?? Seriouslly…your arguments are a BIT weak and ridiculous.

All Serbs did was what all the Balkan powers in 1912 did…try and grab as much land as they could before the west came in beat them with a stick. Serb Armies advanced well into what is today Albania…but you were beaten back from there…Unfortunately Kosova and Macedonia fell into your hands. Well…history has fixed itself now hasn’t it 😉

Yeah we are with Kosovo keeping us down. If we kicked out all the shiptars to turkey we would become the richest in Europe.

Great…so let go of Kosova then and you can be rich :)…lol Kosova was Serbia’s main source of income…the mines an industry of Kosova. Thats why you want to keep it…nothing to do with your ficticious history. Its plain economics…Kosova ahs the richest mines in Europe…the biggest source of income of the former Yugoslavia. Thats why its hard to let go…but let go Miroslav…let go…its best for you if you just let go ;)…then you can be the richest in the world not just in Europe.

Oh BTW its ShQiptar…not shiptar…

About ten (it was called project Igman) however all the T-55’s which are remaining in service are not base model T-55’s but newer modernized ones which were not built in USSR but Poland and Czechoslovakia. The Yugoslav T-55’s built in USSR (Serial numbers up to 18xxx) are being retired while the newer Polish/Czechoslovak ones (s/n 19xxx-20xxx) are being kept. These are considerably superior to an Albanian Type-59. Also the type of ammo in use by Serb T-55’s is BM-8 and and M-69 while Albania uses some inferior Chinese ammo. In fact Albanian army’s best tanks could not penetrate the M-84’s frontal armor from even point blank range. The M-84A is the best tank in the Balkans.

Polish and czech made T-55s were better?? Hmm…exactly the same in every detail as the Russian-made ones.

Our Type-59s can’t penetrate the M-84’s frontal armor?? Ok…what about the 300+ ATGM launchers of the HJ-8 and TOW-1/2 types we have?? You think they can penetrate the frontal armor of an M-84?? 😉

I wonder how the VJ never saw these mysterious tanks… Were they invisible?

No its becasue VJ was dead at the time. BTW…if you want to see pictures…go to the Army Forum section of this website, go the thread onthe Albanian Military I have opened there (a while ago so you’ll have to do some searching)…and there pictures of these things there. Enjoy 🙂

I guess it depends on what you mean by “operate”. Maybe you mean that they posed as civilians and then attacked Serbian civlians when the police weren’t looking. But they certainly could not move around freely as the VJ controlled the whole province.

VJ controlled what?? VJ went around…lobed a few shells into villages…scared the inhabitants out and then left. There were 400,000 internally displaced people in Kosova hiding out in KLA controlled territory…people who had been expelled by VJ from their homes to be expelled to Albania or Macedonia…but instead went into KLA safe-heavens. So if the KLA could protect 400,000 IDPs in Kosova…maybe they controlled big chunks of it 😉

LOL 6 million… WHere are you getting this nonsense from? I think you may have confused SErbia with Albania.

So if you don’t mind telling me…what is the amount allocated to procurements then?? 😉

I guess all those Mi-24’s, Mi-17’s, Bumbars, new guns, latest state of the art optics from Israel, etc it bought in the last couple of years don’t really exist.

Huh?? 2 Mi-24s were purchased…2 Mi-17s…and what “Israeli optics”?? Bumbars??…a system which was produced in a few numbers many years go and nothing since then. New guns?? Such as what new guns?? 10-20 M-20 guns put on top of trucks?? Neither the guns onr the trucks ar new actually…

Then why did Iraq send its Mig-21’s and Mig-23’s to Yugoslavia for overhauls? Why didn’t they send them to Iran (war with Iran was done with and they were allies by then)?

You know I would respond to this…if it weren’t so ridiculouslly funny that you would say Iran and Iran were allies by then. Obviousy you keep showing how much you understand of anthing more and more…

DOn’t forget we also started WWI and WWII…

You started WW2?? Well I’m glad the Serbs keep reinventing history…

Where do you get this nonsense? Serbia’s military is larger than all of those militaries by far, with the exception of Romania because it has 3 times our population.

Are you sure?? Nevermind that the satted aims of the Serb MoD are that by 2010 they will only have 300 tanks, no Navy to speak off (other than a samll SAR force) and a radical reduction in numbers on everythig else…just looking at the situation as it stands TODAY…Bulgaria has 522 T-72 tanks, 1,000 armoured vehicles, 900 heavy artillery pieces and 224 MRLs…with of course a birght future in NATO and more mdoernizations and expansions for the future. Romania has 1,200 tanks, 3,500 armoured vehicles, 632 self-propelled artillery and 315 MRLs. Croatia has 300 tanks, 200 armoured vehicles, and 700 artillery pieces. Croatia is the only regional power that has less quantitativly than you…but they also have good prospects for much more advancment…while you…don’t!

Albania has 700 tanks (Type-59s and T-55s), over 400 armoured vehicles, over 1,000 heavy artillery pieces and 250 MRLs. We also have the regions MOST powerful anti-tank capabilities with 150 HJ-8 launchers and 150 TOW launchers.

The thing is…the prospects for all these armies for the future are bright. They are all in NATO or to be in NATO soon. They all recieve plenty of monetary support from NATO countries…and plenty of new weapons will enter service ina ll these armies.

Currently, Serbia has around 700 tanks, around 600 armoured vehicles, 800 heavy artillery pieces and 100 MRLs. The problem is…that by 2010 Serbia will only have 300 tanks and a much much smaller force of everything else…while the other balkan countries will only keep modernizing while the prospects of Serbia modernizing its army are next to ZERO…becasue when and IF you decide to hand over your war criminals…it will still take a couple of years to get into PfP…and then sevreal more yeasr to get into NATO…by which time you’r looking at a timeframe of 2020…while Albania will be in NATO by 2007.

Its all about the prospects…Serbia’s military has none.

The 80’s refers to the entire span of the decade, you know 1980-1989… The pilots who flew teh Mig-29’s in teh 80’s are the same guys who flew them in ’99. So pilot trainign wasn’t one of the reasons that the Mig-29’s did’t do too well against Nato. The only reason was the inability to obtain replacement parts from Russia (which is to no small degree Russia’s fault).

Ahm…in the 90s…how many hours did Serb pilots fly their MiG-29s?? I’d be surprised if it were more than 10 hours a year. Enough said…

Really? What can Albania do to a Mig-21? Can it perform complete engine overhaul on the R-13 engine? Can it diagnose and fix bugs in the electric system? Of course not…

And again you say this as the expert on Albania’s military industry that you are?? 😉

HOw do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you spout nonsense like this? Albania’s army’s plan is to reduce the army to 12,000 men. It is the weakest military in Europe by far. Even Macedonia could drive through it in a couple of days.

Hehe…Macedonia would do well to keep quiet least we unleash our 1,000 strong NLA on them again…lol

Secondly, Albania’s future plans call for a reduction of the ground force to about 16,000. However, this is becasue of the way the army is planned to be organized. They are all to be professional soldiers. There are to be 6 Infantry Divisions…of which only one is to be kept at full readiness in peace time…while the other 5 Divizions are to be kept at a 10% manpower level during peacetime. So you see…in time of crises..they can be increased 10 fold. Also, this measn that the equipment will still be kept…and will be equipment to equip an army MUCH larger than a 16,000 men one…becasue it will be kept in reserve for the other 90% of the army which will not be active in peacetime. As a result, the future plan is for about 370 tanks to be kept operational with several hundred more to be kept in reserve…and for about 750 heavy artillery pieces to be kept.
So in terms of equipment…it will be an army in size at the least equal to that of Serbia…but also with much better equipment than Serbia’s. Just the past 5-6 years has seen the introduction into service of over 200 armoured vehicles (M-113s, MAV-5s and others), the complete modernization of the entire transport and logistics fleets which are now fully equipped with western equipment, the complete modernization of the communication systems with western systems, and the introduction into service of some 300 of the most modern ATGM systems with over 2,000 missiles for them. Recently Locheed-Martin was contracted to provide several modern radars for air defense and to modernize the entire air defense network. What will happen in the next 5-6 years?? 😉

What about you…what have you done in the past 5-6 years??

Considering that every war we’ve been in, the opposite side had the support of Nato, it’s no shame. We fought the world’s most powerful military alliance and after three months only lost 14 tanks. I’d like to see any other Balkan country last even a week.

LOL…again with the 14 tanks!! Dude…there are at least 26 wrecks of M-84s and T-55s in Camp Bondsteel alone…all documented with pictures of the vehicles. I can show you pictures of at least 11 M-84s captured by NATO after having been left there.

You didn’t lose 14 tanks…get that much. The Serb army when it pulled out of Kosova was at least 100 tanks short.

Every war you’v been in NATO has been on the other side?? Really?? Operation Storm of the Croats mean anything to you??

Becuase it’s what your own country’s MOD is saying? WHy is it that everything you claim is the exact opposite of what your own MOD claims? They say they are reducing the strength of their army to 12,000 and you say they are enlarging it. They say they are retiring all their fast jet fleet for ever, and you say they are getting new jets. Why should anyone believe you?

Miroslav…when did you learn to speak Albanian?? How can you read what articles the Albanian MoD prints out??

I already explained above what the “12,000” figure means…and why it has nothing to do with the ammount of EQUIPMENT the army will have.

Miroslav…if you can read Albanian so well…and you’r calling me a liar…than can you please translate the following articles for me: They were taken from the offical website of the AAF here: http://www.air.mil.al/

Forcat Ajrore kanë përfunduar dhe miratuar planet për Zhvillimin e Modernizimin e tyre në vitet e ardhëshme në kuadër te ristrukturimit te Forcave të Armatosura të Republikës së Shqipërisë, që synon shndërrimin e tyre në një forcë cilësore, të aftë për të siguruar, kapacitete mbrojtëse, për t’u dhënë përgjigje sfidave të kohës dhe që realizon integrim të përshkallëzuar në strukturat euroatlantike, sipas mundësive ekonomike për t’u përballuar nga shteti shqiptar, në përputhje me realitetet e mjedisit të ndryshuar të sigurisë në vend dhe në rajon.

Helikopterë për transport të mesëm dhe SAR
Kompletimi me helikopterë për transport të mesëm trupash dhe për operacionet SAR do të realizohet në periudhën 2004-2006.
Individualizimi apo tipizimi i llojit të helikopterit për këto qëllime është çështje e komisioneve të ngritura enkas për këtë problem sipas afateve e mundësive ekonomike.

Helikopterët e sulmit
Bazuar në Misionin e Forcave Ajrore e Strategjinë Ushtarake për mbështetjen e afërt ajrore të operacioneve te Forcave Tokesore e Detare, pas heqjes se parkut te avioneve reaktive, në Forcat Ajrore do të dislikohen helikopterët e sulmit.
Kjo detyrë do të gjejë zgjidhje pas vitit 2006.

Avionët interceptues
Përdorimi i aviacionit reaktiv interceptues është i domosdoshëm në funksion të realizimit të misionit të Forcave Ajrore për:”Kontrollin e hapësirës ajrore e kundërveprimin ndaj shkeljeve të saj”.
Avionët reaktivë interceptues do të dislokohen në Forcat Ajrore pas vitit 2007.

Artileria Kundër Ajrore
Deri 2006 do të hiqen nga perdorimi sistemet AKA 57 mm dhe do të mbeten ne perdorim raketat HQ-2,raketat portative, sistemet AKA- 37 mm, radaret e zbulimit
Do të ruhen kështu kapacitetet ekzistuese deri në vitin 2006, ndersa pas kësaj periudhe do të realizohet pajisja me sisteme të reja të raketave te mesme veprimi SHORAD të lëvizëshme dhe për sistemet me rreze të vogël veprimi, kundër shënjave që fluturojnë në lartësi të vogla do të realizohet pajisja me raketave KA portative tip “STINGER”.

Vëzhgimi Hapësirës Ajrore
Në realizimin këtyre detyrave synojmë te rrisim kapacitetet e Kontrollit të Hapësirës Ajrore, realizimin e sistemit të integruar të vëzhgimit të tre hapësirave midis tre forcave, bashkëpunimin me institucionet civile të përfshira në SIVK, bashkëpunimin me NATO-n. Aktualisht kanë përfunduar kompletimi i kullave të trafikut ajror ne Farkë e Kuçovë. Per modernizimin e ketij sistemi do të vendoset nje radar primar stacionarë dhe dy radarë primar/sekondar mobile

And more…

Brigada Ajrore ka plane të qarta për zhvillimin e modernizimin në të ardhmen.Deri në vitin 2006 do të hiqen nga perdorimi sistemet AKA 57 mm, ndërsa mbeten ne perdorim:
– raketat HQ-2
– raketat portative
– sistemet AKA- 37 mm
– radaret e zbulimit
Deri në vitin 2006 do të ruhen e mirëmbahen këto sisteme, ndersa pas kësaj periudhe do të kryhet pajisja e Brigadës së Mbrojtjes Ajrore me sisteme të reja të raketave te mesme veprimi, si dhe SHORAD të lëvizëshme.
Zëvëndësimi i sistemeve ekzistuese po kryhet në funksion të misionit dhe detyrave të Forcave Ajrore si dhe për t’u
Përshtatur e unifikuar me sistemet e Mbrojtjes Ajrore të ushtrive të NATO-s.
Transformimi dhe zhvillimi i Brigadës Ajrore është një nga prioritetet e e modernizimit të Forcave Ajrore, që kerkon jo vetëm pajisjen me sisteme të Mbrojtjes Ajrore efektive, të qëndrueshme, të lëvizëshme, por edhe rritje të aftësive të personelit.

Synimet për të ardhmen:

– Studimet e miratuara për planet e ardhëshme të zhvillimit të Brigadës Ajrore kanë përcaktuar edhe kërkesat për sistemet e ardhëshme me të cilat do të pajiset brigada për realizimin e misionit dhe detyrave. Në përgjithësi sistemet do të jenë të tilla që
– Të kenë një organ të vetëm komandimi, kontrolli e komunikimi i cili të përputhet me sistemin e integruar të zbulimit
– Të jenë të prodhimit Perëndimor
– Mundësisht të jenë të prodhura në një vend, kjo për t’I shërbyer përdorimit, mirëmbajtjes, sigurimit të pjesëve rezervë e trajnimit në vazhdimësi të efektivave
– Të jenë efektive dhe t’I qëndrojnë sa më gjatë kërkesave të kohës
– Të sigurojnë qëndrushmëri, probabilitet të lartë goditjeje e fleksibilitet.

Koncepti operacional i Br.M.A kërkon:
– Arritjen e niveleve operacionale të përcaktuara në dokumentet
– Zhvillimin e kapaciteteve operacionale të përcaktuara në rritje në të gjitha nivelet e komandimit, armës dhe shërbimit.
– Arritjen e aftësive luftarake, tekniko-profesionale të kuadrove, shtabeve dhe efektivave në përshtatje me konceptet dhe kërkesat që shtrohen.
– Sigurimin e gatishmërisë së paisjeve ekzistuese duke i dhënë prioritet mirëmbajtjes e përdorimit të tyre me efikasitet e profesionalizëm.
– Zëvëndësimin e sistemeve dhe pajisjeve në përdorim me sisteme dhe pajisje të reja..

Modernizimi prespektiv i BrMA diktohet nga:
– Misioni i gjërë dhe i rëndesishëm.
– Vjetërsia teknollogjike e sistemeve dhe pajisjeve ekzistuese.
– Nevoja e përshtatjes dhe unifikimit me sistemet e MA të ushtrive të vendeve anëtare të NATO-s
– Përputhja e sistemeve të reja të me sistemin e integruar të vëzhgimit ajror.
– Përmirësimi dhe implementimi i sistemit të Komandim-Kontroll-Komunikimit dhe Kompjuterizimit.
– Terreni, kushtet e përhapjes së objekteve e forcave për mbulim KA dhe nevoja e krijimit të strukturës së zjarrit KA.
– Konceptet e reja të Mbrojtjes Ajrore.
– Prioritetet e transformimit e modernizimit, nëpërmjet mbështetjes financiare nga buxheti i MM dhe ndihmave të ofruara nga vendet partnere.

Sistemet e reja duhet të plotësojnë këto kritere:
– Të jenë efektive, të qëndrueshme, me prodhueshmëri, propabilitet goditje dhe fleksibilitet të lartë.
– Të jenë të prodhimit perëndimor, mundësisht të jenë të prodhuara në të njëjtin vend, për t’u integruar më mirë në një mbrojtje ajrore të vetme. Kjo do t’i shërbejë përdorimit, mirëmbajtjes, sigurimit të pjesëve rezervë dhe trajnimit në vazhdimësi të personelit.
– T’i qëndrojnë sa më gjatë kërkesave të kohës, per shkak te kostos se larte.
– Te kenë aftësi për kundërveprim me zjarr ndaj të gjitha objekteve ajrore kërcënuese, ditën, natën dhe kushte të ndryshme të motit.
– Të jenë të paisur me sistem njohje për objektivat tanë ajrorë.
– Të jenë sisteme të përzier (top-raketë), të vendosura mbi platforma të karrocuara vetëlevizëse.
– Të kenë një organ të vetëm komandimi, kontrolli e komunikimi i cili të përputhet me sistemin e integruar të shtabit epror dhe të mbulojë të gjithë territorin e vendit.

And more…

Më i miri për kushtet tona është vlerësuar sistemi i raketave DKA me rreze të mesme veprimi HAËK-MIM 23 B, sistem i përmirësuar në vitin 1996. Ky sistem është në disa versione. Sistemi është efikas për mbulimin e objekteve të rëndësishëm dhe përforcimin e mbulimit kundërajror të forcave dhe mjeteve që veprojnë brenda zonës së zjarrit të tyre dhe zëvëndësojnë sistemet ekzistuese SA-2.

Sistemi ka lartësi maksimale 18300 metër, lartësi minimale 30 metër, rreze të efektshme të qitjes 40 kilometër, ka komandim gjysëm të drejtuar, siguron manovrueshmëri , temp të lartë qitjeje e qëndrushmëri ndaj radiotrazirave. Në raste të veçanta përdoret për mbulimin e forcave e mjeteve në operacione, ndërsa zhvendojsa e tyre realizohet më anën e tërheqjes.

Për sistemet me rreze të vogël veprimi, të cilat përdoren kundër shënjave që fluturojnë në lartësi të vogla si avionë me krahë të fiksuar, helikopterëve dhe mjeteve ajrore të papilotuara, është vlerësuar sistemi i raketave KA portative “STINGER”.

Ato lëshohen nga platforma të ndryshme dhe janë të transportueshme nga ushtari, pasi pesha e tyre është 5,6 kilogram. Kanë një rreze të të efektëshme të veprimit nga 1 deri në 8 kilometër, drejtohen me rreze infra të kuqe dhe kanë një temp qitjeje: një raketë në çdo 3-7 sekonda.

So…Miroslav….can you read the articles from the Albanain MoD?? If you can’t…HOW do you know what they say??

Right… Then what do you call these pictures of Bosnian Serb airforce jets taken only last year?

Last year was last year. You have one from this year?? 😉 I am sad to inform you…they were all retired.

The PAK-FA is scheduled to fly in 2007 and enter service in 2012

LOL…ok I’ll take your word for it then.

As opposed to you inventing things as you go along. Things which contradict what your own MOD is saying

I’m still trying to figure out how you now what our MoD is saying?? lol…They hardly ever release anything in any langauge you can understand

Serbia is finalizing a deal with Kuwait right now to modernize their 150 M-84’s into M-2001’s (T-90S level). The profit from this should allow Serbia to modernize their own M-84’s to this level. 300 T-90S equivalents woudl be more than enough.

With the slight exception that nearly all the parts of this “modernized” M-2001 are made in Russia and will be sold by Rosboronoexport…nothing to do with Serbia. So who does the money go to?? 😉

As for the old T-55’s… They won’t necessarily be thrown away, but converted into this:

Well you should have told the Serb MoD a bit earlier about this…becasue they already scrapped 150 this year. So they will have 700 mine-clearing vehicles then???…lol. Why did no one ever thingk of this!!

90% invisible to radar and 70-80% to thermal vision

Wow…thats amazing!! You and Garry really should report your new inventions to the Nobel Prize committee…you’r sure to win it. How exactly did Serbia discover such new technologies to make vehicles 90% invisible to radar and 70-80% to thermal?? By putting rubber plates on them?? Man…I should put rubber plates on my car too to make it invisible to police radar. Stupid Americans…wasting all their money on an F-22 to avoid radar…when they could have just asked the Serbs how to do it…some rubber and split is all it takes.

Seriouslly Miroslav…do you ever go back and read your posts…just out of curisotiy of what other people see when they read??

Lovemigs your logic is astounding!! First…if they havn’t killed a US citizen…therefore they’r ok in your book?? Nevermind them killing 300,000 civilians from other countries or ethnically cleansing millions. As long as they’r not Americans…its cool. Well…maybe’s Bush’s mentality is right up that alley too.

Secondly…becasue most Albanians are Muslims…therefore…they must be terrorists. Nevermind that nearly half of Albanians around the world are Christians…or that the President of Kosova is a convert to Catholicism. Nevermind that the Albanian branch of islam is the most tolerant open religion in the world…not just by islamic standards but by any religious standards. Obviously those things don’t matter to you…becasue the level of your knoweldge doesn’t go beyound the fact that we are Muslims (I myself am half Muslim half Christian)…and therefore we are terrorists.

I don’t know if you can understand the obsurdity in your way of thinking…but I think that it would be pretty pointless for me to try and explain it to you becasue to say such things…you kind of have to be a lost case anyway.

Its like me saying the IRA is mostly Catholics (or are they Protestant…who knows)…they put bombs and kill people…therefore all Italians are terrorists too. :rolleyes:

Thirdly…arming in “someone else’s country” and attacking “someone else’s country”. If your going to go into Balkan politics…you BETTER have some knoweldge of Balkan history. Who’s country?? Who told you Kosova was Serbian?? Emperorsclothes.org or Venik’s Aviation?? Kosova has alwasy been inhabited by Albanians…Serbs just ruled it for a couple of centuries becasue they invaded it…and then they invaded again in 1912. What makes Kosova Serbian?? 90-95% of the population was Albanian…even after Serb colonists had been coming in since the 1980s to replace the Albanains Milosevic fired from ALL government jobs…and about 60,000 Serb colonists from Krajina. What do YOU know about the history of Kosova to be telling us who’s country it is?? What do YOU know about the history of Kosova to be telling us what rights we have to pick up weapons to defend our rights?? Do you know what Milosevic did in Kosova?? The break-up of Yugoslavia STARTED in Kosova…Kosovars were the first to rise up in 1981 in protests against Milosevic…to be rewarded with thousands of people killed…tens of thousands of people arrested and kept in jail for 20 years…tens of thousands of people deported out of Yugoslavia…the detention of 1/3 of the Kosovar population by Serb police for intimidation…the firing of ALL Albanians from government jobs…the closing down of Albanian schools…the flooding of Kosova by Serb police and military to indimidate and arrest and murder at will. Kosova was never more than a Serb colony…where they oppressed and brutalized at will. Whose country was this again?? And why didn’t we have the right to rise up for our rights?? Becasue Serbs always like to play the victims in every situation??

Too late for that…Kosova is already gone.

But as I said…I don’t think its any good for me to explain any of this to you…becasue with all due respect lovemigs…as I said earlier…to have such opinions as you do…you have to be a pretty lost case anyway.

:rolleyes: I love Balkan threads!! :p

The only thing which was built was the RL-4, which is basically a R-73 missile carried by a truck a launched with a booster rocket. It has a altitude of close to 30,000 feet. More info about it here: http://www.janes.com/defence/news/j…50405_1_n.shtml

I don’t think this system is even operational…looks more like a prototype made out of desperation. First…how many R-73 missiles does Serbia even have available for such a program?? I don’t think its so many. Secondly, what is the capability of such a system…just an R-73 seeker looking around for targets?? Thats not so much better than just a MANPAD. Where does this vehicle get any targetign data from?? So its just impractical…and probably nothing more than a porotype. Why do they even exhibit this thing??

thanks,how sad that they don’t modernise more for the next war with NATO cuz there will be a war it’s sure over Kosovo again.

:rolleyes: No Comment

Koljedub: Yes you are right, everyone is against us Serbs, but it doesn’t matter because we always come out on top just like the turk occupation and ww1 and ww2 we always won and each time serbia got a little larger.

You should subscribe to National Geographic…they’ll sned you maps for free. You should have a look at those maps sometimes…cause it looks to me to be getting smaller…not larger.

Lika: Nato is only doing that to lull us into a false sense of security. It is fooling no one because every Serb knows who our friends are (no one) and who are enemies are (everyone). There were tons of official visits and agreements between Germany and France/Britain in the late 30’s, but war still happened.

They’r doing that for their own behalf…you’r right on one thing that they’r not doing it for Serbia’s behalf. The closest NATO troops are in Bosnia…so to get from Bosnia to Kosova they need to drive through Montenegro.

You’r right though…that doesn’t necessarely mean they’r not going to bomb you if there is a war.

But here’s the thing you need to understand…when your supposedly “liberal” president and PM come on TV and say if Kosova separaes Serbia will go to war…then there really isn’t much hope for anyone for a peaceful future. If your mentality keeps saying “hey we’ll win like we “did” in the last wars”…then war is inevitable. But you think you’ll win with R-73 missiles strapped to the back of a Praga truck covered in rubber plates?? Rubber plates aren’t going to protect it from bombs…

Either way I agree arming up is a good idea, but do it gradually and sensibly. Like Putin has with Russia.

10 tanks in the past 10 years hasn’t really improved Russia’s military by that much. Nor is Serbia in a position to be “arming up”. The only thing Serbia is going to do…and is doing…is massive cuts in the military. T-55s are all going to be scrapped (150 were scrapped this year), thousands of artillery pieces are to be scrapped, almost the entire Navy is to be scrapped or sold off (future plans call for a Navy number 400 men strong…if there will be a “Serb” Navy anymore when Montenegro is gone)…and the AF will have at most 20-25 MiG-21s and maximum of a dozen G-4. Numerically this isn’t “arming up” but reducing…

But don’t build a military to fight NATO.

But build a military to fight who?? The KLA?? The KLA doesn’t exist anymore…Kosova is for all intents and purposes separate…and whatever its final status may be…one thing is clear that no Serb soldier or police will ever be allowed to set foot there again.

What are Serbia’s intentions to being with?? To go militarely back into Kosova? That will never be allowed…and then you will be fighting NATO too along with the KLA. To go in and fight the KLA?? I don’t think Sebria has that ability either…KLA now can be much better armed and trained and much bigger. To attack any of its neighbours?? It can’t do that either becasue its army can’t defeat any of its neighbours.

So why is Serbia “arming up”?? When you’v been pushed against the wall its probably time to give up…not keep fighting…Becasue realistically Serbia can’t even defeat the KLA anymore.

Some circles in Serbia agree with me…and want to turn the army into one big police force with little fighting capability becasue realistically whatever Serbia get sitself into next time…it will be beaten just as badly…so instead of spending a riduclously high percentage of the GDP on military like it does…it should probably spend it on feeding its people insead. However, on the other side you still have the supposed “liberal” PM and President who say things like Serbia is ready to go to war over Kosova. Thats not very promising for Serbia’s future with that sort of mentality…

Learn from your old mistakes…”arming up” and going against the world…may not be the best idea.

Learn to use the media better

I thought they did a pretty good job…Kojedub still believes Serbia shot down 43 NATO planes in 1999. Serb TV was very busy shwing “wrecks” of US airplanes in 1999…a fuel tank here…an unexploed bomb there…a clip from Bosnia and an F-15 fuel tank…and you have excellent media use! Then unleash Venik and company to write articles about the bombing of Rinas airport…and you’v just won the war! NATO just surrendered to the VJ commander…

The KLA were a bunch of terrorists, but they beat you with the media.

Terrorists have a way with the media… :rolleyes: The media just loves terrorists…especially when…oh wait it wasn’t the KLA that put people in mass graves.

The KLA won becasue it started out the war with 5,000 people and it ended the war with 25,000 people. It started the war with SKS rifles and ended it with 122mm howitzers and Type-59 tanks. It won becasue it had the support of 95% of the Kosovar population…and it won becasue they were on the RIGHT side…and as a result the bombs dropped on the other guy.

Serbia should have no illusions that if it weren’t for NATO it could have won against the KLA on its own. The war would probably still be going on…but Serbia wouldn’t have won it either way.

So I would advise that no one should harbor any more intentions for the future involving Kosova…not if you’r going to go at it with rubber-plated Praga trucks.

Simple SMT upgrades for your Mig-29s plus a few surplus Mig-29s and arm them with R-77s, plus a gradual upgrade of ground based SAMs. The Pantsir looks interesting. Why not approach the Russians and joint develop a SAM that will be useful for your conditions? Perhaps a modern IIR seeker like that planned for the R-74, on a two stage high altitude missile with EO and TI guidance and tracking on a trailer system that is highly portable and light.

Great!! Hey Garry do you have about 500 million dollars to do all these things you say?? If you do…write a check and mail it to the Serb MoD…

Other countries in the Balkans or Eastern Europe can afford to modernize…beasue they’r NOT PAYING for any of it. Serbia isn’t even allowed to be in PfP…

Military ties between NATO and Serbia and Montenegro have already been established – e.g. Norway provides winter training for Serb officers

Well yes the fact is Serbia would be more than happy to be allowed into PfP and eventually into NATO…like all its neighbours are already well on their way to. But it can’t…because of such mentality…

Not sure I like your Mig-29SMT idea Garry. The Mig-29 has proven expensive to maintain, and it’s plagued with malfunctions. You never know what is gonna malfunction on it next and in some cases you don’t even know it has malfunctioned until you try to use it. Serb pilots were sent up in the air believing they had fully functioning planes, then various electronics failed. Maybe there has been an improvement in later Mig-29’s (Serbian Mig-29’s were built in 1984) but I don’t think you can improve it too much because it’s still the same design. Mig-29’s were designed by the USSR with the idea that they were going to be destroyed soon in a major war with Nato so they were not designed to last long or to be of high quality. They were only designed to be cheap to build, and to have good performance.

Thats the most ridiculous explonation I’v ever heard. Serb MiG-29s fell appart as soon as they took off because they hadn’t been repaired in the past 15 years…hadn’t had a new piece of equipment replaced in 15 years…were flown by pilots with 10 hours of yearly flying experience…in planes that hadn’t taken off in years at a time.

Things tend to fail when they havn’t been used or repaired for years and are used by inexperienced pilots…

Serbia wouldn’t have done any better if it had F-22 Raptors instead…kept in the same conditions as those MiGs were and flown by the same pilots…

Its all in the ABILITY to keep planes airwirthy…Serbia doesnt have that ability…thats why there are hundreds of MiGs and J-22s and G-4s rusting away in airfields because they can’t fly and there’s nothing to make them fly.

Serbia should do what most other balkan countries are doing…either keep only a small token force of planes…or eliminate them alltogather becsue they’r useless anyway. Croatia will keep a small token force and replace them with a small token force of F-16s maybe in the future. Albania will only keep a small force of jet trainers so that in the future a small token force of jet planes can be acquired. Bosnia, Macedonia and Slovenia both realise they don’t have the abilty to keep jet aircraft flying. Serbia seems to know better than everyone else…even though Croatia and Albania will only get new jets through other countrie’s cheap deals…not on their own money. But who’s gona fincance Serbia’s deals if they’r not even allowed to come into PfP…or wore if they get the birght idea of invading Kosova in the future??

Actually Yugoslavia’s first choice was not hte Mig-29 but the Mirage 2000. However Yugoslavia was also building a 4th generation fighter to replace its Mig-21’s, so they only needed a 3rd gen fighter which would last just long enough to fill the gap until the new fighter was ready. So the cheapest option was bought, the Mig-29’s. That’s why they only bought so few instead of enough to replace their 120 or whatever Mig-21’s.

Heh…forget that history…that was in Tito’s days…30 years ago. Mirage was way out of budget for Yugoslavia…and the Yugo-made “4th generation fighter” was a pipedream. Today’s reality is much different. Today there aren’t even 20 MiG-21s that can fly…

Anyways, 10 Mig-21Bis’s have been overhauled in 2000 or 2001 and are good for ten years. A new multirole fighter will be bought by then

You think so?? Paid by who?? To begin with someone has to offer you a good deal on a good airplane…and you have to have either someone sponsoring you or have the money for it. None of these things exist for Serbia’s case.

Greetings to Miroslav, Srbin and all my fellow Balkanians! I am back after an absence. I suggest you hide your women and first borns…the Albanian Muslim boogieman is here for them!

It is great to hear our good friends and neighbours in Bulgaria are planning to buy new fighters. However, I highly doubt, despite your best efforts, that they are doing this to fight the Turkish or Muslim minority of Bulgaria…lol Bulgaria has a 10% Turkish minority and a 12% Muslim minority…most of which is coenctrated somewhere in the center of Bulgaria and which never has had any territorial claims or otherwise on Bulgaria…since of course Bulgaria didn’t invade anyone else’s land 😉 So any attempts to draw comparisons to Kosova are pointless.

Anyway…I think the reason they don’t go Russian also has nothing to do with how many Russians died fighting the Ottomans two centuries ago…LOL…but more to do with the fact that Russia cannot really offer Bulgaria what it needs…neither in technical terms (a MiG-29 is still not comparable to a newly-build F-16) or in support terms.

F-16s and Grippens remain the best options in my opinion…more affordable for the same level of performance.