My guess is that it is clearly designed not only to keep up with the rest of Europe but also as a technologic leverage for US collaboration; a technology demonstrator is expansive, a real UCAV is simply unrealistic for the UK on its own even more so NOW (expecialy one with intercontinental range), expect a collaborative programme with the US (or EU country, Germany coming top of the “possible” list) instead.

Just shows in what kind of fantasy world you live. The UK is arguably well ahead of any European country in development and use of UAVs/UCAVs. Except for Germany no other European country is working on a national UCAV programme. In my mind its UK, Italy (Molynx, Sky-X, Sky-Y, part of Neuron, Falco, Asio, Styx, etc…), Germany (Barracuda, Barracuda II, Agile, etc…) and then France (part of Neuron, Heron with Israel, etc…).

Just some of the highlights:

Taranis (First flight 2010 – 8000kg UCAV)

Mantis (First flight 2009 – wingspan of 20 metres)

Zephyr (holder of the world’s UAV endurance record at 80+ hours)

Raven (Two built, Finless design flight tested from 2003 onwards)

Corax (Flown 2004)

Herti (Production underway, tested in Afghanistan)

Fury (Weaponized, weapons test carried out in 2008)

Watchkeeper (large production programme in collaboration with Israel)

Flaviir
Soarer
etc… .

Yes it IS a UCAV technology demonstrator but NOT an UCAV in itself, it is an UAV…

We agree.

Doesn’t matter even if that was true (which it isn’t – there are lots of RAF/MoD statements to it as a UCAV), BAE Mantis will fly a full two years before your little wooden Neuron. :diablo:

I think it is important to note that this is Mr. Edelstenne, CEO of Dassault Aviation, just to clarify the objectivity of the source regarding the criticism of the European input into F35 and the Eurofighter cost. 😉

UAE : 80%
Qatar : 70%
Brazil : 60%
Greece : 50%
Libya : 40%
Swiss : 40%
India : 30 %
Pakistan :10%
Argentina : 5%

The odds seem to high in my mind in some cases. I’d put UAE and Qatar at 60%. Greece at below 40%. Switzerland at 30%.

Tell you what: the desperate one is not exactly this one. Eurofighter has 4 production lines too feed.´

Incorrect, one production line, four assembly lines.

With the previous cost overrun they don’t have anymore budget for future improvments,

What? Source?

and deputies don’t want anymore to waste more money (to not been lynched by their population).

Very informative.

They desesperatly need more orders to make the production lines work beyong the Tranche3 – which T3 is not even secured.

So, can I assume only 120 Rafales then? Tranche 3 will be secured have no doubt and that means production well beyond 2015.

In spite their effort they can’t close the gap, they slip, to make one step ahead they need to spend 4 time more money and endure 4 times more delais than the French when they make 2 steps ahead.

Eurofighter eight times less efficient? Sure…. but I’m biased? Ha ha.

AESA

How does CAESAR not work properly?

furure version of the EJ-200,

How does it not work properly? Source?

(real) data fusion,

How does it not work properly?

A to G radar modes,

How don’t they work properly?

recco pod,

What?

electronic war pod,

What?

reliability,

What?

even the gun,

What?

nothing works properly. All those issues suck, and specially suck all the few money left. And little by little the ship is sinking and it shows more and more.

Yes, that’s why its 2 export customers, 87 export planes and another customer with a preliminary contract for 24 aircraft. Add, one of the existing customers close to signing for another 48. It’s sinking… lol.

To make a come back they’d need to pour a new mountain of $$$, or, why not, make another plane. But they don’t have the will anymore, they are tired and the members of the Eurofighter mafia now hate each other and just wait for one pretext to pull the gun out and shoot at each other.

This is exactly what I’m talking about, as soon as someone makes subjective criticism of Rafale the French fanboys come out and insult Eurofighter on totally ridiculous grounds. It’s a state of denial they’re in that’s not funny anymore.

A bit exagerated but that’s more or less the reality.

I would describe it as the sick fantasy of a Rafale fanboy. I didn’t recognize anything correct or remotely true in that.

Rob is really the most bias and nationalist poster on this the rafale thread with fonk, you can relly feel all the resentment he has. I remember he whished that dassault would exit the fighter market…Which is a shame for an aviation enthousiast. He is the only one here claiming that the rafale is a failure but he only represents himself and is not authoritative at all. In fact his opinion his insignificant.

Of course I hope Dassault exits the market… along with Boeing, Lockheed, etc… all but BAE Systems & EADS Deutschland. That I am supporting a product that I know will keep my countrymen in employment is not nationalist, its logical. I do not want Boeing or Dassault to fail because I hate their countries, just because it is better for my countries if Eurofighter is successful. There is a difference in that. But anyways calling me nationalist just shows how little you know about me, because that truly is a funny statement.

Fact is the rafale is technically a great success,according to its customer and is many times praised by French member of parliaments from both the majority and the opposition. (something extremely rare for a big military programme). If you read the reports of the french paliament defense commeete (composed of deputies from different parties), they all say in their annual report (that I already posted on this thread), that in the end living the EFA programme was the right decision. In the end It is the AdA and the french taxpayer to decide whether it is a success or not. The fact that the AdA and the taxpayer in the voice of the deputies commited to the F3+ standard is a good indication…Should I remind that the rafale despite being a one nation programme has several years in advance in terms of development ?

This is exactly what I’m talking about, it is impossible to criticize Rafale without at least one Frenchman getting personal and resorting to insults (“most nationalist”). I never said Rafale is a technical failure… it is not. I said it is a failure or an industrial failure… both for the same reason, despite being/used to being ahead in development years it has secured no exports compared to Typhoons 87.

True the rafale has still no exports, but at least it performed very well in technical evaluation in opened competitions. The lack of exports is mainly due to france lack of influence comparing to the USA or a four nations consortium and the fact that it uses mostly only french weapons which can also be seen as an asset in some cases.

And I’m sure you know that because you have seen all the classified data… US embassy protocols, etc…. but I’m biased eh? Funny how a little later you talk about adapting “reality” to one’s own views.

secondly, as it has been officially stated the rafale doesn’t need any export to be viable although it couldn’t hurt. The fact that the DGA ordered the next batch of improved F3+ standard is an indication.

That does not change the fact that if you look at the Mirage series the Rafale is a setback and industrially an epic failure.

thirdly they are still a few campaigns running so it is a bit soon for Rob to tout and tell all his hate! Imagine if the rafale won the MRCA competition, he would look stupid no ?

Again, insults. However, I think MRCA will go Russian and if Eurofighter has not more than 126 exports by the time MRCA is finally decided (2011?) it would be a major setback for the programme.

Last but not least many aircrafts have been regarded as being successful without exports. If the AdA can performs very well with the rafale then it will be a success. Quality vs quantity is also something which have already be seen in aviation history during the cold war…

Not by me in industrial terms. I would classify Tornado as an industrial failure too and that secured 120 exports. If Typhoon does not breach at least 200 it might too be an industrial failure.

And I always reckognized the typhoon strong points, you are spinning the truth rob, because you are so one sided you want to conform the reality to your views. Your only pleasure is to see the rafale becoming a failure you have nothing to do with aviation enthusiasts. It is true that I can be bias since I like the rafale very much, but still I have borders that I don’t want to cross. I would never whish the typhoon to fail.

You are so unbiased that you are, unlike me, becoming insulting on a personal level again.

The result so far is a plane that the AdlA and the MN are delighted with, and which has saved lives in Afghanistan

You don’t save lives on a PR exercise.

France left EFA on the grounds it wanted to be the leader of the whole thing controlling design and exports…. because otherwise the project would fail in the hands of the incapable xenos… now Rafale is a failure and the xenos have managed to clock up 87 exports to two nations and orders of another 72 likely at worst. Rafale, in other words, has completely failed in the industrial targets of France.