RE: the war for gas

LAST EDITED ON 14-Aug-00 AT 06:19 PM (GMT)[p]LAST EDITED ON 14-Aug-00 AT 06:11 PM (GMT)

…and I tought this wouldn’t be needed…

Krasnaya, I’m now seriously considering to ask you to go to some of the nice Venik’s or Pavicevic’s sites and remain there.

1.) There is nobody simple pushing the story about evil Serbs and good Croats or Moslems, to contrary. So, Krasnaya, re-read my post.

The only reason the German and Austrian governments were supporting the separation of Slovenia and Croatia (and later Bosnia) was that both of them KNEW what was going on in Yugoslavia, while the rest of the West (as you correctly mentioned) DIDN’T.

Please, don’t tell me, that the US politics was searching for improving relations with the Islamic countries in helping Moslems in Bosnia: as a matter of fact, Iran, Egypt, Turkey and several others were there first (one of the first embassies in Sarajevo was Iranian, established in 1993), delivering weapons to Moslems. The US jumped then in 1994, trying hard to bring Croats and Moslems back together, in order to “save” them from coming under “Iranian influence” (it was you who mentioned Iranian B747F in Zagreb). For you to get more info, as you were certainly not there at the time, and you are actually spreading the Serb/Russian versions, I would like to suggest you to read several issues of Soldier of Fortune mag from this time (and no cries that this is a “extreeme right mag”, please). It’s a good start for you.

2.) You say that you never made any reference to conspiracy of the US, but you’re repeating that again. About the US press which is only happy to “play patsy” to the US government, I would like to suggest you to read a bit about the Watergate, Irangate, Shotdown of the Fligh 655, White Waters, Levinsky and other affairs….

3.) Yeah, Croatians are really fascist folks. When you’re walking on the streets there, you’re endangered species if they heard that you’re not Croat. Such rubbish: the same as if you would tell something similar for Serbs.

New Croat premier was born in German concentration camp and the new president spent his childhood during the WWII hiding in the forest to avoid being slaughtered by Chetniks and Ustasha. I don’t need to go visit the Genocide museum in Belgrade (not even Jewish society in Yug recognized it as such): there is – for example – one (almost destroyed by retreating Serbs, just like jewish cemetry in Belgrade), in Jasenovac.

Regarding the number of the Croats in partisan units:
“Vojni Lexikon” and “Vojna Istorija”, two pretty fat books written for academies of the former Yug Army somewhere in 1983, state that in 1942 there were some 140.000 Partisans in Croatia, and some 2.000 in Serbia. Most of the other Serbs were either with Chetniks or with the quisling Nedic government. If you like, I’ll be so kind and take a look for their losses.

The stories about anti-Nazi Chetniks are legends: yes, the guys sat two years and saw that Allies are not comming. In the meantime they massacred several thousands of Croats and Moslems in Bosnia (nobody is talking about this) and then started a war with “civil-war” with communist Partisans. Yes, Serb Chetniks were really anti-Nazi, lazy and doing nothing, they only colaborated with Germans…

Your source is Djilas? Dear Lord, neither Yug communists nor Serb nationalists wanted the man! He’s as honest and “straight” as Radovan Karadzic… McLean must’ve also changed his mind – only for you – since he wrote his memoirs. The next on the list of the people you talked with will be Tito himself, huh? The other Serb Generals you seem to know must’ve been the same who in 1995 declared to one Col. of Canadian bataillon with the UNPROFOR that they’re there to defend their Country, Yugoslavia. The only “wrong” thing about that was that they were standing on the ground of independent and internationaly recognized Republic of Croatia (in Medac pocket) at the time….

4.) The Croatian people wholehartedly backed – not Tudjman but their independence. Tudjman, the first Croat dissident that had the permission to travel abroad (in 1988), had the luck that he came as Croats abroad were willing to support anybody who promised to bring independence from Yugoslavia. When the other dissidents followed him later, they found that simply took all the money… But, Tudjman used this for his own business. One of his clossest co-workers, Milas, told once: if you’re in power (politically), you have to steal! That says everything about the character of the former Croat government.

By the way, attrocities and ethnic cleansings were clearly started by Serbs. Between 1991-95 Krajina Serbs (some 60.000 Serbs living in Croatia) already ethnically cleansed practically all non-Serbs living in area which they occupied resulting in over 277.000 registered refuges in Croatia (not talking about those not-registered)! I admit that I don’t know the exact number of people murdered but it runs in several hundreds….

Did you hear or see any example in which Croatian Army rounded up civilians in hundreds and thousands and forced them to leave their houses or simply shot at them, burned them in their own houses? Nope, no such incident has been reported by anyone, only Serbian troops did that…

At the beginning of 1993 the Red Cross published its figures on the number of refugees in the FR Yugoslavia. There were less than 9,000 only 1.6% of the total.

Ever been here http://www.helsinki.org.yu/ ? HCHR Croatia reported war crimes from 3.

Or here? http://www.helsinki.org.yu/god/emanj1.htm – over 40,000 Croats have been ethically cleansed from Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Vojovdina, Serbia, Kosovo) between 1991-1998 – and there wasn’t any war there – Croats (or Hungarians) DIDN’T rebel and formed their republic from part of Serbia demanding independence!!!!!

5.) In one post, you said that “A split up Yugoslavia is easier to control politically and economically than a unified Yugoslavia….” and then tell Patrick something completely contrary about Iraq. Come on, be serious.

6: Those pictures of starving and half-dying Moslems, taken in several Serb concentration Camps, well, those were “played” by Moslems too, huh?

7. and 8.) NEWS FLASH. You, Krasnaya, are really good, and if you really continue to work “this hard” further, I’m sure you’ll find better news some days, but also learn how to imporve your behaviour or discuss matters in public.

Now about Milosevic and his war crimes: as I couldn’t find any copy of the law suit the court in Den Haag is using, I used the constitution of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia:

Article 37
“In regions of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia inhabited by national minorities, the languages and scripts of these minorities shall also be in official use in the manner prescribed by law.”

But, how could such a peacefull and democratic man – like Milosevic – left Serb parliament forbide all the schools and universities in Serbia which learned on Albanian?

“Article 38
Censorship of the press and of other forms of public information shall be prohibited. ”

Strange, there are only news about closings of free press and radios, as well as confiscating their equipment coming from Serbia….

“Article 135
In wartime and peacetime, the Army of Yugoslavia shall be under the command of the President of the Republic, pursuant to decisions by the Supreme Defense Council.

Well, sorry, the guy was and still is the President of the Republic…

“The Supreme Defense Council shall be made up of the President of the Republic and presidents of the member republics.

“The President of the Republic shall preside over the Supreme Defense Council.

This means that Milosevic is responsible for war crimes made in former Yugoslavia by the Yugoslav Army and paramilitary forces comming from his own state EVEN ACCORDING TO HIS OWN, YUGOSLAV CONSTITUTION!!!!

Need more? OK.

“Article 136

The President of the Republic shall appoint, promote and dismiss from service officers of the Army of Yugoslavia stipulated by federal law; shall appoint and dismiss the president, judges and judge assessors of military tribunals and military prosecutors.

Source:
http://www.gov.yu/regulations/constitution/constitution

You should be very, very carefull when stating that I’m not researching but “only reading some press”…

9.) What are you actually talking about? Can you actually imagine what does it means that one human being was killed? Not to talk about 2 or or 3, or “thousands”? If NATO could have been stopped from attacking, do you realize how many thousands would have died in Kosovo? And how many would have been safe if NATO bombed Milosevic in 1991? Do you understand the meaning of your words?

What to hell should the West do with Kosovo in your opinion?
Sit there, doing nothing and think, “well ok, some Serbs opposed the genocide in Bosnia too, so let’s wait, maybe they’ll do something… some time…” The fact is, Serbia got bombed as a result of what its citizens had done – not what sombedoy in the West “thought”. I’m the first to admit that Serbians did experience violence at the hands of Albanians and that also pretty much every major ethnic group in former Yug republics has its hands dirty; but, Serbians are the ones that commited the genocide on the scale Europe hasn’t seen since 1945. In this Europe, which is trying to unite in order for all to live better!?!

If Albanians had the means to invade Serbia, besiege and shell the hell out of Beograd, and evict, kill, rape or imprison hundreds of thousands of Serbs, they would be bombed just as well. The West did what it thought it had to do to stop the “cleansing”. It’s another question if what it did was half-assed.

10.) Yes, I’ve been ignorant and semi-literate, but still able to read Yug constitution, find out that Milosevic is guilty for war crimes according to his own constitution, that he’s guilty for crimes and betryal of his own country and state. Strange, neither whole Yugoslavia (no worries, I’m not getting megalomanic) nor you or the lawyer you say you know were capable of finding such things, but are calling me semi-literate? Well, I really have to face certain facts: that is, that reasonable discussions with certain people are impossible.

11.) What’s the average yearly earning of an average Croat? USD 4.500. That of a Serb? some 1.500. Really, Croats are having it worse than Serbs, especially this summer on their nice Adriatic beaches by 35°C…. I told already that Tudjman and his clique stole all they could, but what is Milosevic and his family doing is much better, sure. The Serb economy was on a good way of recovering as he refused further negotiations with the NATO, you “expert”. Germans (yes the same which – you say – want to “destroy” Yugoslavia) were buying thousands of tons of plastic granulate in Pancevo as the war began. It was really in the interesst of their government to damage two of it’s own companies for some USD 5 million!

And let me finally tell you couple of further things:

I couldn’t find it right now, but there is an Article in the Yug Constitution which says something like: “No one has the right to acknowledge the surrender of the armed forces or of the country…” and another which says: “No person has the right to recognise the occupation of the country in whole or in part…”

(I really don’t understand why Serbs aren’t reading this!)

So Milosevic violated further two points of his own constitution in letting the NATO “occupy” Kosovo!

Krasnaya,
BY THEIR OWN CONSTITUTIONAL LAW (!) ALL YUGOSLAVS SHOULD BE FIGHTING AT THIS MOMENT AGAINST THE FORCES WHICH ARE TEMPORARILY OCCUPYING AN AREA OF YUGOSLAVIA (KOSOVO in this case). THIS IS WHAT THE PLAN OF OPSTENARODNA ODBRANA WAS FORMULATED FOR.

So Krasnaya, be so kind and tell me why is Milosevic not letting this constitution being executed? He’s a criminal even to his own state… or, as I said, he’ll do anything to remain in power.

RE: the war for gas

Oh, come on, Krasnaya,
now Milosevic and Serbs are targeted by the NATO “because people like simple answers and because that is what the State Department wanted…”

Phiiieeww! This is really far from being truth.

Take a good, really good look at all the issues of Western press from 1989/90/91/92 as well as all the political declarations given by Western politicians at the same time: the war in Yugoslavia was always declared for “internal struggle” and “civil war”. No talks about “aggression”. And that was one of the reasons nobody from the West tried to intervene sooner. If there was an intervention in Yugoslavia at the same time, somebody could also ask for similar in Northern Ireland, Belgium, Spain, or on Corsica…. You may now declare all the parts of the “US imperialist master plan” as long as you wish (I’ll only loose my respect for you), but these are facts. As late as 1995, Milosevic was held for one of the people who “brough peace to Balkans”.

No discussion, it’s true that Izetbegovic is an Islamic extremist, with a fat dossier. That a good part of Croats in the WWII colaborated with Nazis and massacred thousands of Jews, Serbs and other, but you shouldn’t forget, that some 60% of communist Partisans were also Croatians, and that this changed only after general amnesty for Chetniks (Serb nationalists, which fought on the Nazi side too) was declared in 1944. No question of Kosovo being a part of Serbia, no question of the NATO intervening there without any agreement with the UN (but if the UN would agree to such an intervention, then it would have to agree to at least 15 further similar operations, starting with one in Chechnya, and finishing in Angola).

There is also no point in discussing Tudjman: it’s clear that he was a shouvinistic dictator, who managed to intrigue a good part of Croats (but never the majority) with his “ideas”. There is also no question about part of nationalistic Croats being also at least as guilty as Serbs for the war in Croatia.

But,
declaring that the USA and Germans wanted to destroy Yugoslavia is something that has nothing to do with reality: the only interesst both of these two powers have is for foreign countries to remain in one piece, otherwise, their companies are loosing too much money opening their branches in too many small markets.

And,
declaring Serbs for victims of the struggle in Yugoslavia is neglecting all their deeds in Croatia, in Bosnia and in Kosovo. You can explain here about Croats barbecuing Moslems in Bosnia, but the idea came from the Serbs. Do you really need now the long list of all the attrocities done by Serbs, begining with the attack on Erdut and Dalj, (Croat places on the Croat-Serb border) exactly nine years ago, over Krajina, Western Bosnia, Eastern Bosnia right to Kosovo?

Strange, I’ve never heard about similar things happened in Serbia (except that many Croats and Hungarians are forced to leave Vojvodina, the northernmost part of Serbia). That’s simply so because no Croats or Moslems attacked Serbia.

Is it wonder that 90% of War criminals accused for attrocities done during the war in Yugoslavia are Serbs (including Serb leaders like Milosevic, Karadzic and Mladic), or are you going to tell us that the international court in Den Haag is biased too? What about rapings, massacres, planed – organized and executed – massive ethnic cleansings of hundred thousands, concentration camps, mass executions (don’t forget 8.000 Moslems in Srebrenica alone) done by Serbs? Nothing of it happened, huh?

I’m not negating attrocities made by others too, but they are really neglecting (I apologize to all the victims for my expression) compared to what Serbs have started and done. And this is the only reason NATO intervened in Kosovo case too, because most of the people in Western Europe were already sick of hearing further news similar to those about what Serbs made in from Croatia and Bosnia.

Neglecting deeds of Serbs all over so many places is the same as saying that German Nazis or Japanese troops never did what they did during the WWII.

The whole war in Yugoslavia, 90% of the attrocities, massacres, the ethnic cleansing and unbelivable suffering happened only for one reason: because Milosevic used the awaken Serb nationalism in order to rise and remain in power! This resulted in parts of other nations and religions there to became shouvinistic and some other creatures to use the chance and rise to power too.

To be honest, I don’t even think Milosevic is really a Serb nationalist, only a pure oportunist, like S. H. in Iraq. That’s a reall crime: to order killings of thousands only in order to remain in power!

PS And don’t worry about US help for Croatian armed forces: Croats are now more occupied with saving what they can. On average, only some 5 out of 20 available MiG-21s are flyiable at all, and the picture is not better with any other part of Croat heavy weapons. Nobody in Croatia even dreams about any “invasion” of Serbia; the majority of the people there were tired of the war on 28 June 1991 (one day after it “officially” started in Slovenia).

But if he remains in power, your “poor” Milosevic will certainly manage it to make Serbia the size of Belgrade city!

RE: the war for gas

LAST EDITED ON 12-Aug-00 AT 10:54 PM (GMT)[p]Dear Martin,
some of your remarks sound a bit strange to me, otherwise, I think I do understand some of the questions you asked.
For example, why the US intervened against Iraq in 1990/91, but not against Yugoslavia one year later, or why does the US rile with some countries on the Earth at all.

The question of certain US interventions is not as simple as it seems to be. Well, it’s truth, that the intervention in Kuwait was foremost motivated with oil reserves in that country, as well as in Iraq or Saudi Arabia. It’s also truth, that even the US engagement in Somalia was motivated with similar things (traces of oil were found in Somalia some eight years ago).

Kuwait certainly had a good profits from selling Iraqi oil during the I Persian Gulf War (Iraq – Iran War, 1980 – 1988), but this is not the case ever since, as Iraq – for all technical purposes – is practicaly not selling any oil since 1990 any more. We also shouldn’t forget, that Kuwait gave large loans to Iraq (almost USD 20 billions), and Iraq didn’t wanted to pay these back. Iraqis argued, that it was them who “defended” Kuwait and Saudi Arabia against Iran during the ’80s, and that was actually truth, only that Iraqi started the war with Iran!

But back to US interventions: both operations – that in Kuwait and in Somalia – had at least some sort of humanitarian help behind them as well. The general problem with Iraq was, that the country – supported in part by the US during its war with Iran in the ’80s – became too dangerous for all of its neighbours, as well as for the peace in the Middle East, which just started to develop at the time. Well, if Iraq was some sort of democracy, I don’t belive that it would attack Kuwait or provoke such a war with the “Gulf Coalition”, like it did in 1990/91. But with a dictator in Baghdad, which was ready to kill even his own people with chemical weapons (and he did it repeatedly and massively), the story was – and remains – somewhat different: nobody wants to take chances. You only have to take a look at Saudi Arabia: Saudis actually don’t want US soldiers on their soil, but they need them for the defence against Iraq.

Yugoslavia is another case. Here much more could be done much earlier, and – if even a much smaller intervention than that of the last year was undertaken in 1991 or 1992 – there would be no suffering of the kind Bosnia and Croatia experienced. The operation undertaken last year came too late, and became almost a failure (due to political factors), but was finally successfull in closing Milosevic into his own “garden”.

There are also couple of things you seem not to know: Kosovo is not an independent country, but a part of Yugoslavia (previously, till 1989, it was an autonom province in Yugoslavia). According to all plans this should also remain so. (So far) no oil was found on Kosovo, and there are no traces of it there. Serbia was very much bombed during the war last year, especially in certain phases of the operation “Allied Force”. In fact, B-2s die bomb diverse targets, even in Serb/Yugoslav capitol, Belgrade, from high altitude. And noth only B-2s, other fighter-bombers bombed other targets all over Yugoslavia as well, not only in Kosovo.

Finally, let me tell you, that you’re not the only one who asks why do the US still go and intervene all around (see Africa now), but it’s a pretty long story…