Rahil leaving out the cheeky sarcasm and getting serious for a minute, I do not understand your first point.

Also i do not see what you mean by the second point, original argument was that the purchase of the 155mm howitzer was probably more important for Indian Army than mass purchase of the Brahmos.

All i have said is that the howitzer is more important for India than the Brahmos for the northern border and that the Brahmos would be more of a irritant.

A pinaka system carries 12 rockets I believe each carrying a 200Kg warhead with a range of 40kms (? going by my ageing memory now). This system costs the Indian Army $1,000,000 I presume? maybe even less. It is just as mobile as a brahmos unit but can take out a much larger area.

My rather simple point is that when you deal with the PLA you are not dealing with a small country with a few hundred men who have not had the experience of fighting a dirty war of atrition.

I am sure i have probably written a few things in error but i do not see a gap in my statement that artillary would be more useful for the Indian Army.

what you don’t like sarcasm in reply to sarcasm ? 😀

anyway, my point was against your comment that ‘against china brahmos will be an irritant at best’ IMHO is quite a naive assessment or that there are no targets in brahmos’ range, which again, is laughable. how the heck is *any* army supposed to fight a war without sending its ground units ?
surely the PLA is not all 1ultra long range missiles and robot drones that it can conduct an entire war against India without coming into physical proximity or is it ?
used properly, and I mentioned the possible targets, the brahmos can be very useful.
it is a costly PGM and will be used as such by IA and IAF.

How does it attack ships then ? Is it because ships are larger ? I’d guess the top speed of both ships and tanks would be similar. Or is it the height from ground ?

yes sir, size does matter. CEP of a meter or so will be quite acceptable in case of a ship while that distance in case of a tank will explode more or less harmlessly. there’s also the little thing about background clutter which is easier in case of AShM.

M107 arty shell weighs about 50 kgs and has 2000 fragments. 4 such shells (for eg) can go into a brahmos, producing 8 – 10,000 fragments.

question is have such warheads been developed for brahmos(I’m not sure if it is even possible given the profile) ? not to mention that it will be a waste of brahmos USP, it’s speed and KE. won’t it be cheaper and simpler to take out enemy SAM formations with brahmos and send in strike aircraft in stead ?

Is it even theoretically possible to use brahmos to hit an enemy camp site with such a war head. If aimed very precisely (unlike howitzer shells which take many attempts and have to be a lot closer) could practically mission-kill that unit even if many survive.

possible perhaps. but using a trisonic missile in such a hit and miss role is a little bit expensive.

Pure fiction ?

close enough ! :p

airdefense units artillary pieces

and all these on PLA’s side will be out of brahmos’ range ? 😀 add fuel and ammo dumps, C3I nodes etc to that.

seems like refusing to acknowledge a gap in original argument. 😉

Also realistically if you look at the map of the north where do you think you would use such an missile with such a range?

really matt, can’t you think of “any” worthwhile target in that range in case the border heats up ? what does the PLA fight with these days anyway that they can fight an entire war from a distance of 250 km from the border ?

I suppose they have retired all their infantry, mechanised forces and artillery ? :rolleyes:

a number of people have commented on ‘India-related topics’. only one has been ‘accused of’ prejudice. I rest my case.

Again, we have no other option than get a new fighter to replace the older once, Pak Fa in 2015 is still optimistic if you see how much work is still to be done (engines, radar, weapons, even airframe seems not to be the final).

optimistic ? 2015 is next to impossible IMHO ! 🙂
if they can really manage to reach even IOC by that time I’ll be *very* impressed by the russians. realistically, the earliest possible date for FGFA/PAKFA induction in IAF will be around 2018.
unfortunately, the MRCA induction too will not start before 2012, more realistically 2013, production rate is also likely to be slow for the fist 4-5 years.

therein lies the 5-6 years gap between PAKFA and MRCA that I alluded to in my last post.

Also you have to keep in mind the roles! Altough Pak Fa/FGFA will be multi role fighters, their prime role will be air superiority and most likely MKI and MMRCA will take over most A2G mission. That’s why I said, A2A capabilities like those of EF, or Mig 35 won’t matter to much in MMRCA, because they will be outdated soon, but good A2G capabilities will serve IAF even alongside Pak Fa/FGFA.
Imo we could see the same combo in IN too! The bigger carriers planed by IN will only come from 2018 onwords and by then Russia should already started navalising the Pak Fa. So N-Pak Fa for air superioity and MMRCA (I suspect Rafale, or F18SH as the winner) would serve good for IN too.

can’t quite agree. su-30mki and the FGFA is/will be a truly multi-role aircraft and thier roles are BOTH air dominance and strike in a high threat environment.
lower risk interdiction and CAS roles, along with CAP/interception will be handled by the other aircrafts, viz. LCA/MRCA/AMCA/upg legacy.
the division of roles of the type you mention won’t happen. even now, long range strike forms a very important component of MKI role.

undoubtedly, most of the MRCA contenders will do a better job than the LCA for both these roles, but the question that needs to be asked is, are those little increases in capability worth the price ?

now, the MRCA tender has gone too far and gotten too big to be shot down by simple military arguments. in this situation an L1 case is the best outcome, which means the gripen.

in that case, the IAF should induct both the gripen and LCA Mk2 as equivalent aircraft to build up the numbers IOW mig-21 replacement. totaling around 300 or 15 sqdns (6 gripen and 9 LCA)

PAK-FA as the top end to supplement the mki.
by the time AMCA comes into the picture in decent numbers, it will start replacing what is left of the legacy aircrafts.

Rahul, you make a lot of sweeping statements, which could be “thinly disguised flaming.” You yourself have admitted that you have not followed all the avenues available to you for resolving your complaint

I admit *NOTHING* of the sort. I’ve complained more than once using the report post button, nothing has been done. When I’ve mentioned in the thread that some postors were bent on disrupting the thread, again nothing was done and all I got was some talking down about how I was biased and blinkered due to my nationality(words to that effect) and hence my views counted for little.
oh and did I mention that my posts with critical comments keep on mysteriously disappearing ? in fact this thread is the first one where this hasn’t happened.

kindly do not blame me for a failure to act on moderator’s part. I’ve done what I could as a postor.

and yet you think you have the right to troll, whilst others with different views do not?

pardon me Sir, but what gives you the right to defame others this way ? kindly show me where I’ve trolled or take back your statement.
the instance you posted was the example of a frustrated comment at the continued and burgeoning troll-infestation at this place, directed at no one in particular, there was no flaming involved, nor any thread disruption.
you call that trolling ? then how come this standard isn’t applied to the bazillions of posts that do much worse ?

It is actually you who is giving the troll precisely what they want by stooping to their level. Was it the chicken or the egg that came first?

perhaps you would like to read the last IAF thread in its entirety and then decide if I’ve *ever* trolled. it’s not something I have time for. currently, your misinformed notion that I was trolling is mildly hilarious.

Take a leaf from DovinR’s book and offer something constructive.

it takes two hands to clap sir. when I’ve mentioned the problems that led to the current state of affairs in this thread, except frankvw, all I see is unbridled hostility towards any critical comments. hardly the example of requesting co-operation.
if the mod team decides to take unbiased action, I can guarantee that personally I’ll not be found wanting.
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quantum, thanks for the heads up about the report function.

dovin, there’s no alternative to mods who are generally fair, composed and have an interest in the threads they moderate. unfortunately it seems that the one involved in moderation of India related threads would rather rid the place of ‘uncivilized sub-continentals’ and treat Indian postors as ill-mannered schoolboys (irrespective of the matter at hand) than do any effective moderation.

as for recommendations
> may be arthur can stay away moderating India related threads since his personal prejudices get in the way. I believe any of the other mods (SOC,frankvw,mpacha) can do a fine job.

> in the long term you should probably look for more hands on mod team. for a forum this large and active the mod count seems on the lower side. we had similar problems in BR. the situation has improved drastically with addition of new moderators. I’m sure there are some very capable people from the list of long time postors.

frank, thanks for the ‘frank’ post. I too have a significant part in running a rather largish forum i.e bharat-rakshak and I understand much of where you are coming from.

I certainly agree that it is NOT the job of mods to ensure that people post correct info. but when a person insists on posting the same completely wrong info (without ANY source) immediately after being corrected with authoritative sources (and this goes on again and again, page after page), deliberate obsfucation of facts (lying to put it gently) all sprinkled with a generous amount of flaming, what will you call it if not trolling ?
sure, the trolling has evolved and is much more sophisticated than it used to be but one doesn’t need to read more than a couple of pages at most to understand it for what it is.
the problem arises when some member expresses the view that someone is trolling in a thread, his views are nonchalantly brushed aside by some moderator as being ‘blinkered’ and ‘biased’ without bothering to look into the problem.
the question needs to be asked why someone like vikasrehman is never accused of trolling while many of his countrymen are ? it certainly can’t be the case that he doesn’t ask critical questions, he asks many more incisive questions than the whole bunch of trolls from his country combined !

as for the moderation, I’ve seen some very prompt and decisive action and also some unbelievably biased handling of situations, including might I say, thinly disguised flaming.

unfortunately, the assumption of equal ‘guilt’ based upon the mere fact of nationality and the consequent talking down is an example of very poor moderation practice. and this is how the IAF thread has been handled this time.