Especially since everyone can see on this forum that the two countries’ supporters behave completely identical :diablo:

really Arthur ? pakistani forumites disrupt the IAF thread on a regular basis (unprovoked at that) while the reverse does not happen. how many times have the Indian members barged in the PAF thread with the intention to derail/lock it ?
extending your logic there is no difference among terrorists and law enforcement agencies as well since both use violence and are therefore ‘completely identical’.

The American taxpayer?

I don’t think uncle sam will pay for turkish goodies.

we know that pak is interested in mangusta and cobras. till now no interest shown in the WZ-10. which means it isn’t up to scratch, for even the J-10B isn’t ready yet (forget that, even the basic J-10 isn’t in PAF service) but PAF is already talking of J-10B with AESA and all kinds of bells and gizmos.
the implication being that if there was even an inkling of the WZ-10 we would have heard of it from pak sources.

that leaves the mangusta and the AH-1. US will only pay for american military hardware, especially in current economic situation. pak OTOH probably wants the more modern mangusta, ostensibly because that will allow chinese experts to have a look. otherwise mangusta makes no sense for a military used to operating free AH-1’s.
given the close relationship between those two countries, it’s plausible.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/10/01/332941/atak-team-outlines-progress-of-turkeys-t129-project-after-first-flight.html

TAI general director Muharrem Dortkasli says the first T129 ATAK will be handed over to the Turkish armed forces in the third quarter of 2013. Turkey will be responsible for international marketing and sales of the design, and industry sources say several countries are already evaluating the product, including Jordan and Pakistan.

it’s likely that china will also fund the acquisition program if it allows chinese experts a closer look at something like the mangusta. it will also help the faltering WZ-10 on it’s way.
in time we might even see china replacing US as pakistan’s primary sponsor. in such a situation china funding weapons for pak forces if it also helps its own projects is very likely.

misraji, LCA –> 2 intakes feed 1 engine

for the ones you mention, J-10, much larger engine, mig-29,F/A-18, 1 of those intakes for 1 LCA equivalent engine each.

I am still trying to figure the sarcasm part. All the time I have been asking for this:

no sir, you haven’t. you queried if weapons training formed a part of Stage III to which I said yes. sarcasm (or the lack of it) lies in asserting someone has failed to do something that he/she didn’t attempt in the first place.

I assumed it was common knowledge. apparently not.

It is only now you are producing this.

because it is only now you have asked. 😉

beautiful shot !

anyone has anything on BAF ? bangladesh air force ?
TIA.

The question rephrased.

Fighter conversion type is definitely required. I wanted to ask if the LIFT part is needed or not. Any one knows what is the broad Stage III requirements? Does it include weapons practice? MOFTU was equipped with MiG-21 FL’s which were fighter aircrafts.

yes zero, I think I already answered that. I’ll try to explain again.

Current process
Stage I (primary flight training and basic aerobatics using props)

Stage II (basic jet training)

Stage III (advanced jet training) (assuming MOFTU is no longer used which is not true, yet)

Op Conversion (basic fighter tactics, including weapons training and conversion on the type)
————————

The thing is, the basic fighter tactics which will be taught using type trainers is something that can be taught more efficiently and economically using a LIFT. using the senior operational pilots in the squadrons for providing basic fighter tactics on the 2-seat type trainers (which are beaten up as it is and spend up life at a ferocious pace) is a waste of precious resources. with a LIFT in place, IAF can provide training in basic fighter tactics at the LIFT stage itself and then use the type trainers in its operational squadrons for conversion and advanced training on the type.
in fact, this is exactly what IAF did for the past 3 decades ! (remember, the mig-21FL’s of MOFTU are not even 2-seat trainers !!)
the only catch was that IAF didn’t have a AJT to take care of the stage between the intermediate jet training (Stage II using HJT-16) and LIFT (MiG-21FL @ MOFTU).

[QUOTE]

Unless Im mistaken IAF’s fighter pilot training used to have basic and intermediate tarining before the pilots were shipped to Mig-21 twin seaters for converison. Hawk is filling the advanced training void that was criticised for several years. I wonder if IAF trainee pilots are still being sent to Mig-21 units prior to being sent to any other units, or do they go to different squadrons (for conversion) after finishing their AJT course?

pilots go to the squadrons directly after hawk training.
going to the MOFTU in between is not an option at all. the MOFTU mig’s are really old and beaten up and numbers have come down significantly over the years. between them and the 25 odd hawks IAF has barely adequate numbers to train all its fighter pilots. so hawk–> MOFTU is not an option even if they wanted it.

Rahul, I skimmed through a couple of sites about USAF & RAF training, and it appears (if Im missing anything important please correct me) US fighter pilots get their basic training on T-6 (or T-34 for navy), then they move to T-38 for advanced training before they go to the relevant squadron for conversion.

AFAIK, they go to AT-38B for weapons training after completing the T-38 course and before moving on to operational squadrons.
as for USN it also has to do with the fact that the pilots from the same training stream also goes on to flying slower prop aircraft. it makes no sense to train them on supersonic trainers.

What Im wondering about is how would a 4 stage IAF programme (as in the post quoted above) before conversion training compares with other AFs around the world???

as for other AF’s, by itself that comparison counts for little. heck, the IAF actually managed without AJTs for near about 3 decades ! that’s a much more difficult thing to do by any comparison ! I doubt you can find another AF that has done that as well ?

of course, a capable supersonic jet trainer (unlike the hawk) can well merge the AJT+LIFT roles with minor variations in variants. clearly, the hawk doesn’t cut it for IAF.
a tejas or a derivative would do nicely in that role.

I wonder what will be their use.

LIFT–> lead in fighter trainer
in IAF mig-21Fls of MOFTU (Mig Operational Flying Training Unit) perform this role. these are old birds which aren’t really ideal for training young pilots.
LCA would be perfect for this role.

http://armedforces.nic.in/airforce/moftu.htm

Role

The primary role of the unit is to impart Stage III operational flying training to pilots inducted into the fighter stream.

They rescheduled the first first flight many times from 2007/2008. Later it was decided to fly by early 2009. Around Sep/Oct there were some news that it will fly by Nov/Dec. Then in between Dec 26 to Dec 29! But its almost 2010 now. Actually when the project was started, it was scheduled to fly around 2005. 🙂

hey, please don’t give me that 2005 business, that is yet another case of ignorant journos pulling out dates from their wazoos. GOI takes an inordinate amount of time to sanction funding, without the money, there is no project.

for the LCH, this was when funding was sanctioned :
be warned though, this article was written at a time when ajai shukla couldn’t see anything good with desi projects much like his DDM compatriots today ! what a long way he has come !
http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/ajai-shuklahealing-naturefailure/274493/

Dominating the HAL stand was a hastily constructed scale model of the planned Light Combat Helicopter (LCH). Other than that, the LCH actually exists only on a government document dated October 2006, sanctioning HAL vast sums of money for its development.

so the LCH was supposed to fly 1 year before the project was sanctioned ? wow ! 😀