of course.

ROTFL.

That PAC reports are full BS.

You would think so. You are so used to lying and spinning the truth that you couldnt recognise facts even if they slapped you in the face. As the PAC reports do.

The PAC reports are the reports of the Indian Govt, vetted and authorised by the Parliament, arcane concepts for the likes of you. You, who are so prone to suck up to the likes of Kim Jong Il 😀

Technology transfer only happens when you can actually make that thing.

Which HAL and Avadi have proved perfectly capable of doing in the past.
Its not PAC Kamra which we are talking of here. 😀

And not only you but also India cannot make it without active Russian participation

The production proceeds in phases, genius. 😀
The final stage is the third one, wherein HAL and Avadi would make the units from local materials. Tough to understand, I know, we are talking of sensible people doing sensible things. Not buying third rate goods from two bit dictators like Kim Jong Il and painting them green. 😉

and even after that It will still need Russian assistance for upgradation. The same story of MIG-21 upgradation after 40 year in service.

Poor you. The MiG27 upgrade is being carried out entirely inhouse by HAL, using both local and third party equipment. P retty much proves that you know squat. As usual. Why am I not suprised? 😀

That was MIG Director statement he does not want any body else for future export fighter.

Poor MiG director. Especially considering that Sukhoi’s T-50 is the preferred choice and especially considering that the IN is buying MiG29K’s and the 29M2 MRCA is trying for the IAF’s MRCA requirement.

Nope. I havent become fan of Russian equipment because of Putin attitude.

You’d suck upto anyone. Putin included. Thats just the way you are and your flip flopping proves it. 😀

PAF can get any Flanker if it wants

Sure, sure. 😀
And it can get Raptors too. And it owns Area 51 as well. Anything else? 😀

Do you realise what a fool you are making of yourself with these statements?

not because it cannot get it.

Sure, sure, the PAF flies retrograde Mirages coz retro is so in….

JF-17 is even stealthier than F-16

Utter BS. Prove it.

the rest you can judge from my signature.

Thanks but no thanks, the way you are going you are a one man amusement park:D

I know alot more but it will become off topic 😀

We all know what you know. Wear your pointed hat and sit in the corner. Thats what you are good for. 😀

To give poor Star 49 indigestion. Have antacids, you need them! 😀

http://www.hindustantimes.com/2004/Dec/23/181_1165794,00050003.htm

HindustanTimes.com » World » Europe » Story
India, Russia certify latest Sukhoi fighter configuration: JDW

Press Trust of India

London, December 23, 2004|16:06 IST
India and Russia have certified the latest Sukhoi fighter configuration, a leading defence weekly reported on Thursday.

The new variant of Sukhoi — also known as MK3 model — differs from the earlier MKII models, Jane’s Defence Weekly reported quoting Russian manufacturer NPK Irkut.

The MKII model can only serve as an interceptor while the MK3 can fire anti-ship and anti-radiation supersonic Kh-31A/P series and television-guided Kh-59 subsonic cruise missiles.

The NO11M radar provides targeting for laser and television precision-guided missiles. It allows the MKIII to engage two air targets simultaneously with the R-27 missile or four with the RW-AE missile. It can also engage one air and one ground target at a time while searching for threats.

The Su-30MKIII will be built under licence at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd complex at Bangalore, with 140 platforms to be manufactured by 2017. The agreement has an overall value of $5billion, the report said.

The certification follows delivery of four Su-30MKIII from NPK Irkut earlier this month. Six more are due by the year-end, fulfilling a series of contracts signed in 1996-1998. These contracts covered 18 Su-30Ks delivered between March 1997 and December 1999 and 32 Su-30MKIs to be delivered between July 2002 and January 2005.

A Russian official was quoted as saying that talks are under way concerning a mid-life upgradation of Su-30MKIs. This would involve integration of avionic systems being developed for the Indo-Russian fifth generation fighter, called the T-50 by Sukhoi, together with more powerful engines and an improved logistics system.

In two days of discussions before Mr. Putin’s visit, the Indian and Russian defense ministers reaffirmed their commitment to boosting defense ties.

Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said the two countries will jointly develop high-technology military hardware, including a fifth-generation fighter aircraft.

http://www.politinfo.com/articles/article_2004_12_2_5749.html

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_8-12-2004_pg7_46

India, Russia sign protocols on missile development

NEW DELHI: India and Russia signed three protocols for fresh investments in joint development of Brahmos supersonic cruise missiles and agreed to draft an Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) accord in four to five months for patenting weapons systems made with collaborative efforts.

The two countries also decided to work out “mutually acceptable” conditions on leasing of long – range TU-22 bombers. With the step – up in investments, Russians officials said it was proposed to produce 306-370 missiles per year.

India has already announced its intention to induct the missiles for its warships. And at the conclusion of parleys on military cooperation for two days, India and Russia have agreed to jointly develop a fifth generation multi-role, multi-functional fighter aircraft. afp

http://www.newkerala.com/news-daily/news/features.php?action=fullnews&id=45658

Ivanov said the two sides had also discussed India’s involvement in developing a fifth generation fighter jet. Mukherjee said a conceptual presentation had been made on the aircraft and the two sides would “work out details” on the project.

And finally, this should really make “someone’s” day:
http://www.kommersant.com/tree.asp?rubric=3&node=36&doc_id=300257

Dec 27, 2004

In addition, vice-premier Il’ya Klebanov recently announced that Russia and India would work jointly to develop a fifth-generation combat plane. Subject discussions are supposed to begin next year after the government has named the contractor on the Russian side (this will probably be Sukhoi).

now it is totally different.

Because you say so, indeed 😀

When you built it by yourself than come back and talk.

What idiocy! You expect me to MAKE a T-90S in my garage? 😀

T-90 is just assembling untill now when you can make it indigenous than talk.And detail presentation for IAF regarding PAK-FA where is the proof.?

Spoken like a true Yahoo. The T90S production license includes transfer of technology for all components, read the PAC reports and educate yourself.
As regards the PAK-FA, had you slept off lately or were you dreaming of Putin again?

Look who is offering 5Th generation fighter because they know the other partner is does not have technology and money. Engine exports are already cleared.

So? It in fact proves that Russia is actively scouting for partners for future projects and gives the lie to your silly talk of Russia going it alone.

There is no flip on this issue.

ROFL. It is quite clear that you will suck upto anyone depending upon the time of the day. Those are all the hallmarks of a flipflopper.

My rant is and was against the Flanker.

Yes, we know it was a rant. Yes, we also know that you hate the Flanker since the PAF cant get it and it completely outmatches the Raptorski JF17.
My condolences! 😀

Russia will cooperate only when they see IP issue signed in 4 months and alll deals are cleared in there favor.

Nonsense. As if you have any say whatsoever in what Russia will or will not do. 😀

I remember that Russia has upgraded Mig21 (Bison) and Israel did the same (Lancer). Don’t think that foreign firm upgrades are better. That is what the Russian said. They produced and developed the plane and the years of experience is valuable.

The key weakness in the Lancer was inadequate BVR armament, the Derby is not a true BVR missile as compared to the R77.

Damn. Damn. Damn.

http://www.ndtv.com/environment/Earthquake.asp?id=15959&callid=0

Some 1000 people in Indias Car Nicobar island chain are reported dead.

Another 3000 deaths in the coastal Indian state of Tamil Nadu reported

These are the present estimates. Damn rescue services are in a state of shock.

WTF, who would have thought that a freaking earthquake off the Indonesian coast would massacre so many. 🙁

What a lousy, tragic day.

Nitin, the reasoning for keeping and upgrading the F-16s make every bit of sense. Regardless of the fact that PAF gets BVR missiles for the Falcons, it is an important asset when it comes to air to surface attacks as well using Paveways and Mavericks (only aircraft in PAF which uses the agm-65s). So its anti-surface role is very much central to PAF’s strategy. Also, up close and personal, the F-16 is hardly a slouch and air defense will still remain its mission. And just as IAF used the Mirage 2000s in EW role, F-16s armed with ALQ-131 would certainly accompany fighters on SEAD missions.
Of course as mentioned, the upgrades would also offer better operational readiness, service life, newer components, and flight safety.

Is the potential lack of BVR capability the only reason some of you think its a “stupid” decision by the PAF to upgrade/acquire more F-16s???

Mohammed,

A well reasoned post, but dont you think the PAF would be better served in upgrading the F-16’s with Grifo’s and rejecting the US MLU, for that would allow them to be BVR capable?

That is the crux of the issue.

If upgrading the present F-16’s via Italy/ China prevents access to further F-16’s, imho, so be it!

What I would call shortsighted is acquiring F-16’s and restricting them to Ground attack / SEAD missions alone.

What are the umpteen Mirages for then? Lo-Lo strike is their role, the PAF has gone to considerable expense to upgrade them and the nose mounted FLIR clearly points to their role.

The 32 F16’s the PAF has, should all be made serviceable, if they arent already and dedicated to the A2A role.

You dont need a FBW equipped agile aircraft to launch LGB’s- the Mirages are perfectly capable.

And the Maverick ability is hardly crucial- how large are the Maverick stocks anyhow?

Think about it- the F-16’s could become the lynchpin of the PAF’s A2A strategy.

Furthermore, why keep harping on the F-16’s when it comes to the US? The FMS aid could be well spent elsewhere to build up the PAF, but it seems that the F16’s are an emotive issue and its a do or die thing to get them?

By insisting on the F-16 the PAF seeks a high visibility acquisition which will draw opposition from the Indian lobby etc to block the same.

Dont you think that its high time the PAF said b_ollocks to the F-16’s and just moved on?

Nitin

How long was Marut in IAF use?

Enough time.
145 were produced. First flight in 1961, handed over to the IAF’s ASTE in 1964, first series production a/c in 1967, then frontline IAF service including the 71 conflict, with the Marut being finally retired in 1990, the last squadron to retire them being #31 .

As noted earlier the Marut also saw extensive combat use.

There is wide consensus about excellent handling characteristics of the aircraft. Most pilots who have flown the aircraft describe it as pleasant to fly and excellent for aerobatics with fine control responses. And its ability to out-accelerate the Hunter led one pilot to describe the Marut, with undisguised affection, as the Hunter Mk.II ! The Marut offered a stable gun platform and packed a formidable punch. While the Marut’s pilots expressed an understandable desire for more thrust than the Orpheus 703 offered, they were unanimous in their view that the aircraft proved itself a thoroughly competent vehicle for the low-level ground attack profile.

The Marut was a robust aircraft with extremely good visibility for the pilot, and was aerodynamically one of the cleanest fighters of its time. With a very stable platform, the aircraft required no artificial augmentation or auto-stabilization. The Marut was originally to have been stressed to 10.5g but 8g was eventually considered to be adequate for the production model. The controls were provided with artificial feel and were effective over the entire speed range, the top limit being 620 knots (1149 km/in) IAS at sea level.

Throughout the December 1971 hostilities, the Marut squadrons enjoyed extremely high serviceability rates (in contrast to the late 1960s), this undoubtedly owed much to an improved spares situation and the original design’s emphasis on ease of maintenance. It should also be noted that from January ’71 onwards, an improved version of the Marut with a lengthened wing cord (giving it greater wing area and hence greater lift), numerous cockpit changes and a sophisticated ISIS gunsight, started entering squadron service.

As tensions continued to rise between India and Pakistan through 1971, the IAF planned to meet any contingencies. Consequently, both Marut squadrons were deployed to Jodhpur from Chandigarh in early 1971. In November that year, detachments from both the squadrons were moved to forward bases as part of Operation “Cactus Lily”. These bases went to full alert as they received the first Pakistani strikes on the evening of the 3 December 1971.

Uttarlai was hit by a B-57 strike at 20:00 hours on the 3rd and its Maruts became the first to retaliate. In the early hours of December 4th, No.10 Squadron flew its first sorties of the war. A four ship counter-air strike (Mission X-01) was flown against Hyderabad (Sind) airfield some 200 miles (320 km) inside Pakistani territory. As aircraft were seen at the airfields, the Maruts proceeded to attack airfield installations with 1,000 lbs. (454 kg) bombs. Surprisingly no attempts were made to intercept the Maruts, which encountered only light anti-aircraft fire and all the aircraft were recovered to base. Hyderabad was subjected to further counter-air attacks later in the day.

Maruts from No.220 Squadron joined their No.10 counterparts, as the latter began interdiction missions later on the 4th. No.220 flew ground attack sorties against Camp Ghazi’, a heavily defended area within which a series of bunkers and other fortifications were destroyed by rockets. This softening up was to prove invaluable to the 11th Inf. Div. when it moved forward during the following night and, after a stiff action, overran the Pakistani positions. Both squadrons continued to strike targets in Sind, and Naya Chor was repeatedly hit on the 4th. Although substantial damage was inflicted on Pakistani positions, No.220 Squadron lost its first aircraft of the conflict over Naya Chor. Flt. Lt. P.V. Apte was killed, when his Marut was hit by AAA and Flt. Lt. Bhargava was taken prisoner after ejecting from his aircraft over Naya Chor.

No.10 Sqn’s Maruts photographed in 1980. These later production aircraft had better maneuverability.

The location of important targets (signal units and nav-aid equipment) at Naya Chor, meant that the IAF lavished special attention on it. The loss from the previous day notwithstanding, Naya Chor was attacked again on the 5th. Running the gauntlet of heavy AAA fire several Maruts strikes hit Naya Chor. POL dumps and trains at Chor, Dhoro Naro, Sufi Fakir and Umerkot were also hit on the 5th.

Columns of Pakistani vehicles were strafed and rocketed by Maruts on the 5th and 6th at Longewala, complementing the tremendous effort made by Hunters operating from Jaisalmer. Further south, the Maruts attacked and dispersed a concentration of Pakistani troops and vehicles opposite Sundra, using their 68mm SNEB rockets to devastating effect. Diurnal interdiction missions were flown against the Pakistani transportation system, the Maruts concentrating on the railway line from Rohri to Khanpur. The marshalling yards and rail junction at Mirpur Khas were heavily attacked by the Maruts of No.10 Squadron on 7th and 8th December.

Although essentially a ground attack aircraft, the Marut also demonstrated that it could also hold its own against enemy fighters. At 0930 hours on December 7th, Sqn. Ldr. K.K. Bakshi and Flg. Off. K.P. Sreekanth engaged on a ground attack mission south-east of Chor encountered four PAF Sabres, presumably on a similar mission across the bombline. Upon their pilots sighting the Maruts, the quartet of Sabres split into pairs, one pair immediately turning in to attack the Indian fighters which took up the challenge.

In the brief melee ensured Sqn. Ldr. Bakshi found himself closing head on with one of the Sabres. Both pilots began firing but it was a burst of 30mm fire from the Marut that found its mark. The Sabre broke away streaming flame and smoke. The same evening a pair of No.10 Squadron Maruts, returning from a strike mission, were bounced by a pair of F-86 Sabres, but out flew the attacking fighters, by exploiting their superior performance at low level.

Encounters with enemy aircraft became more frequent as the Indian Army’s offensive reached Naya Chor, a town some 43 miles (70 km) from the district headquarters at Mirpur Khas and 93 miles (150 km) from Hyderabad-Sind. Beyond Naya Chor lay Sind’s irrigated belt, and an Indian breakthrough into this territory would have had serious consequences for Pakistan. Consequently, the bulk of the PAF fighter-bomber force was committed to this area and both air forces were constantly engaged in support of their armies. On the 9th, No.10 lost its first aircraft when Sqn. Ldr. A.V. Kamat was shot down near Naya Chor.

On the 10th, two Maruts flown by Sqn. Ldr. M. Jatar and Flt. Lt. S.C. Batra were attacking targets of opportunity near Naya Chor, and Jatar had just scored hits with 68mm rockets on a dug-in Pakistani tank, when Batra saw in his rear view mirror, three Sabres behind and slightly above at about 1500 ft. (457 metres). Almost simultaneously a fourth Sabre was spotted at five o’clock. Both Maruts turned to give battle but neither they nor the Sabres had scored any hits when air control warned the Indian pilots of the approach of a combat air patrol of PAF MiG-19s. Believing discretion to be the better part of valour, both pilots disengaged and flew back to base.

The PAF made repeated attempts to neutralize the forward base at Uttarlai. The airfield was attacked by B-57s at night and F-104s during day. These hi-lo missions were launched from the distant Pakistani base at Masroor and the intermediate airfield at Talahyar. As the Pakistani directional beacon nav-aid at Naya Chor was being used for these attacks it had to be destroyed. On the 11th, two Maruts taxiing out for a sortie were shot up on the ground by PAF F-104s.

Although one aircraft was completely written off, both pilots escaped with minor injuries. This did not hold up the strike and within minutes another pair of Maruts were in the air. And so on the 11th and 12th, Naya Chor’s nav-aid facilities remained under constant attacks by Maruts. The Indian fighters ran the gauntlet of moderate to intense anti-aircraft fire, but it was only during the final attack that two of the Maruts, piloted by Sqn. Ldr. Brian De Magry and Flg. Off. Sreekanth, ran into aerial opposition. This took the form of four Sabres returning from a strafing mission against Indian supply trains at Parbat Ali. The Maruts jettisoned their drop tanks and flew to engage the Sabres, but results in the ensuing low-level dogfight were inconclusive.

The very nature of the lo-lo-lo missions performed by the Maruts, made encounters with enemy fighters unlikely, and on occasion a pair of MiG-21s from No.29 Squadron, also based at Uttarlai, flew top cover. The MiG-21s usually flew about 6560 ft. (2000 metres) above the Maruts. On the 16th, a trio of MiG-19s intent on bouncing a Marut strike that had just strafed Pakistani vehicles and troops west of Umarkot, had to brake away to take on the MiG-21 top cover which their pilots had evidently spotted at the last moment.

The Maruts flew until the last day of the war. On the 17th, two Marut strikes were launched against Umarkot. On the first of these a pair of intercepting F-104s were shot down by the Marut’s MiG-21 escort. The Marut was a tough aircraft. On at least three occasions, Maruts regained their base after one engine had been lost to ground fire. On one of these, a Marut returned to base without escort on one engine from about 150 miles (240 km) inside hostile territory. On another occasion Wg Cdr Ranjit Dhawan, flying his Marut through debris that erupted into the air as he strafed a convoy, felt a heavy blow in the rear fuselage of the aircraft, the engine damage warning lights immediately glowing and one engine cutting. Fortunately, the Marut was capable of attaining a safe and reasonable recovery speed on one engine, and Dhawan had no difficulty in flying his crippled fighter back to its base.

All in all the Marut squadrons acquitted themselves very well. The Marut, as an aircraft, was shown to be tough and capable. No aircraft were ever lost in air-to-air combat. However, 4 were lost to ground fire and two were lost on the ground. The Maruts were in the thick of it, right through the fighting on the western front, and the Squadrons ended the war with a total of three Vir Chakras.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Aircraft/Marut1.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Aircraft/Marut2.html