Nitin_VAre you trying to spark a flame?
The MLU provides the PAF’s F-16s with extra flying hours, giving their airframes more life, keeping them in service longer. Whats so wrong with that? Given that the PAF will have JF-17s armed with SD-10s, it can simply use its F-16s for strike/bombing missions, whereas JF-17 can provide escort.
The flame was PLA’s. Its rather obvious, Nirav was merely responding.
A MLU would make sense anyhow, but without AMRAAM’s the F16’s would be relegated to second line aircraft in the air supremacy role.
Right now, the PAF A2A inventory is at a great disadvantage vis a vis India’s, in terms of weaponry and EW. By not including a BVR upgrade to the F16’s the PAF would squander a great chance to get some relatively modern a/c.
Nitin_VMove on? IS there better alternative for a cheap fighter? Is the F16 passed by that many planes? If one nation is almost 4 decades busy with world smallest fighterjet then why can this nation not buy some more cause it is economical and technical very intresting option. Neet, your reason isn’t exactly valuable cause there are a lot of reasons to get the plane. And I admit that I am not even happy with it.
The “smallest fighterjet” is to develop an aerospace industry, which it has and is totally in India’s control- net, we can mix and match what we want.
Secondly it has been a decade and a half ever since the entire process began in earnest.
Now if Pakistan was getting TOT for the F16’s and had access to source codes, it would be comparable- but Pakistan isnt getting the same, right? We are just talking of an off the shelf purchase.
Why cant the PAF move on and purchase anything apart from the F16? Its hardly the only option out there?
Nitin_VAli,
Reports from Pakdef are suggesting that PAF will be getting “MLU Kits” soon. When PAF will have its F-16 ugraded than AMRAAM would be included in the because than what’s the use getting a MLU without BVR. Initially, all MLU were known as “F-16 ADA” because they were capable of carrying Spparow. There is no need to get MLU if you don’t want BVR. What’s the use of MLU without BVR.
Pakdef wishlists aside, are there any indications that AMRAAMS will be released to the PAF? If not, and given that US acess for source code assistance to integrate the SD10/SAfrican BVR AAM’s etc will be well nigh unavailable- why the preference and continued insistence upon the F16? Move on, people!
Nitin_VYeah $100M was big money when they initialy agree for IL-76 but not any more. They are not going to change there policy for this amount of money any more. This from your own news source.
Earth to Saturn. One swallow does not spring make. One news source does not truth define.
100 million $ is still a lot of money and the Russians are not known to pass up on a business opportunity when it stares them in the face.
It is now much more than defence.
Of course. Russia is keen to tap low cost manufacturing in India and access Indian funds to generate economy of scale. The IPR was intended to lay the framework for future cooperation and it did that.
I think he wants India to buy every thing Russia sells.
Of course he does! But he is realistic enough to realize that India will purchase what it needs and nor does it want to have everything Russia does, nor can it afford the same.
Arm twisting India is only to Russia’s detriment and Israel and France’s benefit, apart from giving China leverage as the Indians move away from Russia. OTOH, India would not want Russia to be totally cutoff given the depth of prior engagement between the two nations and the substantial amount of Russian equipment in the forces. Hence, it behooves both nations to meet midway and work things out, which they did. Somehow that sticks in your craw, I wonder why. 😀
Nitin_VA-Darter is still in development and thus I would not include it as a leading contender for JF-17. However, we will certainly see AIM-9P/Ls on the JF-17 along with the Magics and anyother short range AAM in Pakistan’s inventory currently. The bigger question is regarding the BVR missile, and I think Pakistan Air Force will end up with two different systems. Possibilities are South African collaborated effort to arm the Mirages and SD-10 for JF-17. If PAF decides to upgrade the existing F-16s to MLU standard, we might have to integrate the non-Chinese BVR missile but it is also highly possible that F-16s might carry on without any long range missiles for the rest of their service life. There is no indication of AMRAAM making into PAF and displaying it at IDEAS is no proof of such. Arms displayed on shows are directed towards all the attending countries as well, not just the hosts.
The simplest solution is to chuck the APG66H’s and fork Grifo’s or Chinese radars into them. But then again, that might not be a preferred option if the PAF likes the APG66′ s so much.
Unless you get US cooperation, you wont be able to integrate any SAFrican or Chinese BVR weapon with the F16’s thanks to the restricted nature of the source codes. These limitations are why to most of us, the PAF’s continued preference for the F16 is so baffling.
Nitin_VHow about GNAT and Marut…. I think Marut HF-25 was one up there in a senseless aircraft design catagory.
The first knocked down Sabres and the second proved itself in a ground attack role. Both aircraft completed their design objectives, the Gnat proved itself as a frontline IAF interceptor and was developed into a Ground attack version, the Ajeet. The Marut gave a fillip to a nascent Indian aerospace industry and was well appreciated by its end users and performed effectively in a strike role.
In other words, both aircraft lived upto their intended roles.
Nitin_VHow do you know that they are happy of that deal? I have seen one report that they were no happy with paltry sum of $100M.
Sure, that one report is the Holy Grail of unimpeachable evidence.
Russia was so distraught upon recieving a paltry 100 million $ that they threw the $ bills out of an Aeroflot flight over Siberia.
Anything else? 😀
Nitin_VThere is big difference at time Russia agreed with IL-76 aircraft and now. Economics change with time. You will soon find out when deal signed one way or the other.
There is always a difference. Anything connected with India and Russia is bound to be a miserable failure according to Star49’s impeccable “lawgic”. 😀
Both sides will thrash out an agreement and proceed, has happened before and will happen yet again.
Nitin_VYawn. Your fervent hopes are often dashed by cold reality. Secondary role in Phalcon…ROTFLMAO. They supplied the aircraft without which nothing would have been possible.
As for Putin laying out conditions- so did India, both sides negotiated and agreed to what was in their best interests, something hard for you to grasp let alone understand.
Russia will undoubtedly be involved in Tu142M upgradation.
Nitin_VGiven that India and Russia are signing a joint IPR protocol and that Russia will most certainly recieve licensing costs plus be involved if extensive sturctural modifications are required, they will hardly have grounds to object.
Putins visit cleared up some future stumbling blocks.
Nitin_Vhe rest of the article is of course just Fazotron whinging that the money spent on upgrading the Su-27 isn’t going into it’s new radars.
Especially since the old radars are from NIIP which is making more roubles hawking upgrades to the AF. 🙂
Frankly, the RusAF should be happy with the limited radar mode and processing power upgrades and either:
1. Wait for T-50 derived AESA technology to conduct a more extensive upgrade, provided enough airframes with sufficient flying hours are around at the time plus money permitting.
2. Or spend more on datalink and ADGES integration with formation leading aircraft equipped with the Bars…that would be a force multiplier by itself, combined with the uogrades to the NOO1’s based on the MKK orders.
2 seems a more logical and fiscally suitable choice to me.
Nitin_VArthur, done. Will address my comments to the august economists and other gentlemen whose remarks are being responded to.
No need to re-quote a deleted message. That’s why it was deleted in the first place.
Nitin_VI always thought that the reason Pakistan was paid in Soy oil rather than cash was because it was US’s money to begin with and Pak could only buy US products with it. Otherwise, I don’t see why Pakistan had to take it Soy oil instead of cash.
Exactly. Pakistan has been paid back in kind- soya shipments to be precise and it had no qualms to take those monies back. Now its asking for FMS shipments of weapons, which India will undoubtedly oppose.
And that has sent the Pakistanis into a tizzy.
How could the impecunious, nasty Indians oppose arms which would be used against them in war? How mean of them, how sly, how cunning..etcetc. Just not done old chap, just not done… :rolleyes:
Nitin_VActually, it 1965, it was a civilian who suggested war with India, and in 1971, it was again a civilian who put Pakistan at war. It was in Gen. Ayub Khan’s days in command Pakistan was at its height, and yet again, Musharraf is the one who’s bringing Pakistan back up to its former self. Anyways, if Pakistan didn’t have Nukes, India would’ve destroyed Pakistan by now.
And the Generals were blameless right? The pogroms in EPakistan were done by the civilians right? And it was Musharraf who started and instigated the Kargil conflict.
Anyhow, whether civilian or military Pak receiving weapons US or otherwise is “war with India which we will most certainly win this time around”…so why wouldnt India oppose arms donations to Pak?
Well, it was Pakistan who ordered 71 F-16A/Bs in 1988 and 1989, and payed for it with its own money, wasn’t it? Pakistan doesn’t desire F-16s in aid, it desires to buy them, big difference. Yet it was India stopping U.S from letting LM gaining any profit.
Read the above. We oppose arms transfers to Pak, period. We oppose arms donations to Pak even more as they come from the US which proclaims India to be an ally yet supplies weapons to Pak, which may lead to a war with India.
Pakistan is unstable, thats correct, but making it rely on nukes more than conventional force doesn’t exactly help, as the chances of Nuke use increase considerably.
The fact remains that Pak is unstable. No weapons, whether conventional or nuke will help.
In fact, having nuke weapons alone and substantial conventional imbalance is better as it prevents Pak from instigating a conventional conflict yet makes sure India wouldnt bother to split Pak.
OTOH, conventional “boosting” would again lead Pak generals to hallucinate that an Indian defeat is around the corner, instigate yet another hopeless war , but one which could escalate to nuclear conflict.
The fact is that as long as Pak remains unstable and wedded to a hate India regime, weapons transfers to Pak are undesirable.
Not to mention, sanctioning a nation also increases its need to produce its own weapons, if you plan to do that in the long-term, allowing Pakistan to build basic needs for a military, it doesn’t exactly help your cause to weaken an unstable nation. However, assuming that India doesn’t want that, it’ll attack Pakistan while its weak, thus being the catalyist to a new war.
Nonsense. Unstable nations do not become stable by receiving new weapons.
If that were the case, then the US nay the world should be arming North Korea, to make it “stable” and make it feel “confident” with respect to the US , SKorea and the Japanese.
How logical. Supply weapons and an unstable nation becomes stable overnight!
Well, newspapers don’t mean much, as they’re written by a minority of people, whereas communities and online petitions are totally different. It was the North American Indian community protesting the sale of F-16s to Pakistan.
Sure, news papers dont matter much. Nothing matters much, especially when they shine a torch on todays Pakistan.
No need to describe yourself, we already know. ^-
Thank you for proving my point. Pakistanis like yourself wouldnt know sarcasm if it hit them in the face. The fact is that the bigoted descriptions of Indians on Pak fora and deeply ingrained in the Pak pysche are so amusing to everyday Indians that Indians such as myself use the same to shine the torch on cherished views of Indians being dark, short, rice eaters as compared to the tall, tight a$$ed, meat eating fair Pakistanis who belong to a martial race.
I can only LOL at the willingness with which you bought into the statement and reconfirmed the old paradigm.
Wunderbar! 😀
Nitin_VIts pathetic isn’t it? India is vastly superior to Pakistan, and it dwarfs Pakistan, so tell me friend, why is India so worried about a dwarf? Inferiority complex? Indians around the world, in communities protest Pakistani arms purchases, which in comparison is modest defence purchases. Pakistan doesn’t plan to compare to India, but to strive its own defence needs, and halt the enemy from attacking, if it can do that, then having as much money or planes as IAF simply doesn’t matter.
Well, Pakistan is filled with politics, everywhere, right down to schools, education, etc. However, about Pakistan living off U.S handouts, well, asking to buy F-16s is different from begging not to sell F-16s :).
India will continue to oppose *any* weapons transfers to Pakistan as Pakistan is ruled by a military oligarchy which has constantly chosen to use those systems against India having instigated and begun the conflict.
And India buys its systems using its own money and is not dependent upon US handouts to prop up its economy or its military junta.
Any nation in the world would be worried about an unstable nation, rife with schizoid terrorists and having access to nukes, dwarf or not.
The same reason why the US is propping up Pak and having the PA do its work for them in Waziristan etc.
As regards an “inferiority complex”, heck its not Indian newspapers which are full of learned prose about the evil Hindu- Jewish- Christian conspiracy to deny weapons to the soldiers of Allah etc.
You are welcome to live in your make believe world and glare at us evil, rice eating, dark, short Indians ( :D) but when you start all these ridiculous comparisons it is really really hard to not laugh out loud. Shopping lists indeed and reality be damned!
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