Nitin_VYup, in the long run it will hurt. Besides its better to concentrate on a few and make them top notch rather than scatter resources among many projects.
Nitin_VYour poking into Pakistan is totally not justified. The point for not making and buying is irrelavant. Most spares are replaced by inhouse verions if situation is there. Let me give you insight in your childish unrealistic logic.
Why? Because its Pakistan? And what Pakistan does is automatically correct and not liable to be mentioned by us mortals?
The Mirage has a plastic fueltank in the wings.
Made by LEGO no doubt!
The cost of this is comparable with the weight in gold.
Not platinum? You sure its merely gold?
Perhaps its adamantium. :rolleyes:
If Pakistan is able to buy second hand wings (aha… Libya) then they can replace those tanks cheaper.
Aha indeed. So the worlds largest operator of Mirage 3’s cant afford to make plastic fuel tanks (sic) and has to buy used/ stored/ decrepit airframes to get them, since it cant afford Dassaults prices either. And my oh my, somebody was just telling us how easy it is for nations to make spares etc and this and that.
Your empty remarks are laughable. We can talk about India in other topics… It is about J11… And stop crying.
Moi crying? I was just giving you a handkerchief mon ami to stop you from sniffling. But I guess I need to give you a bucket now!
Nitin_VYou honestly think that would stop the Chinese? Two words: Ukrainians and Belarussians. The Chinese already sidestepped the maintenance of the Flankers from the Russians to these.
You are quite missing my point. Its one thing to take limited steps. Another to p!ss off the Russians by breaking contractual agreements. Acrimony would be mutually non beneficial to both parties.
BTW, do you know any public Chinese auditing orgs etc? Any orgs similar to the GAO etc?
Nitin_VHe he. I wonder how Stavatti didnt whup Burt Rutans @ss for the Xplanes prize??
Nitin_VPersonal BS and oneliner… Now you are askin questions. I answer them and then you compare me with dog? Inferiority rules.
LOL!! 😀
Dude “barking up a tree” is an expression. That does not mean you are a doggie!
Personal BS indeed. :rolleyes:
Nitin_VC’mon blue on blue is a sad fact of life in a high tempo op based, fluid battle zone.
Nitin_VIOW you are barking up a tree and shooting off on a tangent wrt the original thread. Good work there!
Nitin_VWho’s blaming Pakistan, old boy? Whats the point in blaming the PAF for not making spares and buying them from the OEM..
I just poked a hole in your assertions that spares are so easy to manufacture, everythings all righty and nicey nicey with Dassault etc using the example of the PAF. Its called being hoisted upon one’s own petard! 😉
India’s stated intent is to deny armaments to its irrendist neighbour. As simple as that. It really does not matter whether the Mirages are ultra modern or ultra obscolescent.
Now as to the rationale behind that- its darn obvious and has been discussed ad nauseum.
Regards.
Nitin_VSo in your words, the Chinese are copiers?:rolleyes:
Nitin_VThe more you train in peace, the less you bleed in war! Better to train intensively in peace and risk attrition than sit upon ones haunches, depend upon obsolete eqpt and pray about martial superiority or keep whining for free eqpt! 😉
The Mirage attrition is still pretty much the same as other Mirage operators worldwide. And given the numbers of 21’s in service and their mission profile- their attrition will be higher.
Nitin_VOh please! Ask the RAAF as to how nice Dassault were with them. Not every nation can build all parts. Economics 101 anyone? If so, what about the PAF- the world’s largest operator of Mirage 3’s eh Tiger? :rolleyes:
Didnt see the PAF too happy when France embargoed them Mirages in 99. Or why the PAF keeps harping on how expensive Mirage spares are! 😉
Pot meet kettle!
Nitin_VMaybe comparing between India and China shows the differences. Not for flaming but both nation have the same background yet the present is much different.
:rolleyes: whatever! Both nations are in the same boat- they have their own programs and are yet dependent upon Mother Russia for Su’s.
Nitin_VNitin thanks for this post but as you your self have highlighted it does not confirm anything it says “considering” what has happened after that is another story. The only people who i have heard say that India will get the PAK-FA are the enthusiasts and sometimes Indian media, but i have not heard India being mentioned with regards to the PAK-FA from Russia media or by Russian company i have not heard them mention the IAF when talking of customers for the PAK-FA.
You have to be kidding me. The ones harping most on the PAK FA for India are the Russians themselves.
http://english.pravda.ru/world/2001/11/06/20252.html
Russia And India To Develop Fifth Generation War Plane
Russia and India are working on a project to design a new fifth generation combat aircraft, a RIA Novosti correspondent quoted Russia’s Deputy Prime Minister Ilya Klebanov as saying on Tuesday.
According to Mr. Klebanov, at the moment the work to prepare this project is underway in India.
Most probably, details of the project will be released to experts in the first quarter of 2002. “Russia will present the project and India’s participation in it,” Mr. Klebanov stressed. He added that a tender would be held to determine the contractor to build the plane. Russian corporations Sukhoi and MiG might participate in the tender.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_8-2-2003_pg4_12
Region: Russia, India to make fifth generation jet
BANGALORE: Buoyed by the success of the Sukhoi deal and the joint development of the ‘Brahmos’ cruise missile, Russia is looking to India for joint design and development of a fifth generation fighter aircraft.
The proposed aircraft, which would be a successor to Sukhoi, as a long-term perspective programme could improve further the strategic partnership between the two countries, Russian Aerospace Agency General Director, Yuri N Koptev, told newsmen here today. Thereby, it could offer cost-effective fighter aircraft to third countries, he added.
The Sukhoi Design Bureau as a developer of the aircraft and Irkut Aviation Industries Association as a producer had gained unique experience in the development of `Sukhoi MKI’ and this could be used in further mutual projects like the creation of new aircraft, Victor M Komardin, Deputy Director General of Rosoboronexport, Federal State Unitary Enterprise of Russia, who was also present, said.
Describing the Sukhoi venture as a “super project” in which more than 600 Russian subcontractors and almost all the resources of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited were involved, Koptev said that Russia was keen on extending its strategic relation and entry of the European Union into joint programmes with India in the Defence sector would not alter the situation.
http://english.people.com.cn/english/200106/05/eng20010605_71779.html
Russia, India Ready to Sign Package of Military Contracts
Russia and India are ready to sign a package of contracts on arms sales and military-technical cooperation, and the first batch will be signed on June 6, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Ilya Klebanov announced Monday.
The two countries are entering a new stage of military cooperation by jointly designing and producing military hardware, especially aircraft, ships and submarines, said Klebanov, who co- chaired a session of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military-technical cooperation with his visiting Indian counterpart Jaswant Singh.
According to Klebanov, who is in charge of the military- industrial complex, Russia and India will jointly design a general- purpose military-transport plane, and the Ilyushin firm will be a Russian participant in the project.
“We are now completing the documents needed for starting its production,” Klebanov said, noting the plane “is not going to be another AN-70, but an absolutely different plane.”
Klebanov said Russia and India are also holding talks on the creation of warplanes of the fifth generation.
A contract on supplying Russia’s Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier to India is also to be signed in September to October this year, followed by the sale of 60 MiG 29K deck combat planes and the construction of coastal infrastructure, Klebanov said.
Singh said that Russia and India have signed contracts worth of 10 billion U.S. dollars in the sphere of military-technical cooperation.
The recently signed large contracts on supplying India with Su- 30MKI jets and T-90 tanks are very important for India, said the minister, urging thorough implementation of those contracts.
Singh, who is also India’s foreign minister, discussed bilateral relations with Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov on the same day in the context of preparations for a visit by Indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee scheduled for November. They also exchanged views on strategic stability and the Southern Asian situation.
The ministers emphasized “the importance of close cooperation between the two countries in the struggle against such global challenges such as international terrorism and religious extremism, ” said a Foreign Ministry release.
Singh arrived here Sunday evening for a three-day official visit amid the stepping up cooperation between Moscow and New Delhi in military spheres.
but i have not heard India being mentioned with regards to the PAK-FA from Russia media or by Russian company i have not heard them mention the IAF when talking of customers for the PAK-FA.
:rolleyes: :p
Nitin_VSo? Did anyone make a claim that any deal had been signed? :rolleyes:
If you did some legwork of your own, you’d know that at Asian Aerospace 2004 Mohanty quite categorically claimed that a deal was yetto be signed and could take place only once the technicalities had been worked out.
What Mohanty does say however is also pretty important. He notes that HAL has been identified as a primary partner: ” And we are someone whom they have identified as a primary partner.”
So dont put words into my mouth or tilt at windmills.
And as regards Tehelka- your point being? Every nation has issues of corruption when it comes to arms transfers. That did not stop DRDO from going ahead with LCA susbsystem development with Israel. Nor did it stop the IAF from going ahead with the MKI. Nor did it stop India from committing funds to the Brahmos.
If the GOI thinks there is a need, funds will be committed. And the need will come once the IAF draws up its ASR’s and correlates them with what Russia has, ie Sukhoi has on offer. As simple as that.
Nitin_VHAL targets outsourcing
Expects Rs 4,000 cr order for LCA
by Sridhar K. Chari
HAL Chairman N.R. Mohanty
WITH the first flight of the first Nasik-produced Sukhoi-30 MKI expected by the end of this year, the LCA programme proceeding apace with 214 flights to date, export sales of the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) and Dornier DO 228, and with several upgrade programmes on hand, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Chairman N.R. Mohanty feels that HAL’s credibility with the Indian Air Force (IAF) and other global aero-companies is at an all-time high. Excerpts from an interview:
Q: What is HAL doing to mitigate the attrition level of the MiG 21?
Quite a lot now. As you know, the IAF flies three variants, the FL, the M, and the Bis. The COFAA (Committee on Fighter Aircraft Accidents) report had indicated that 40 per cent of such accidents were due to technical defects, 40 per cent due to pilot error, and 20 per cent bird hits. We concentrated on the technical area. Wherever there has been any dilution of standards, I have been simply ruthless. Two senior managers were actually terminated. Even the IAF has tightened things quite a bit. And now of course, the Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) deal for the Hawk 100 has been signed.
Q: There were reports that HAL had left out some crucial calculations regarding the tooling in the Hawk deal, and consequently, India had to end up paying more?
A bogey, coming from the UK. Not true at all. Just like last year’s bogey about us using “spurious” spare parts on the MiGs.
Q: What is the status of cooperation with the Russians on building a new “fifth-generation fighter?”
The Russians are keen on doing something to rival the Joint Strike Fighter/F-22 Raptor. And we are someone whom they have identified as a primary partner. It involves a lot of money though. It is also a question of evolving something that suits both of us. They have already started making presentations to the Indian Air Force in this regard.
Q: The LCA prototypes/technology demonstrators have completed more than 200 flights. The IAF is looking at an interim purchase of a fleet of single-seat fighters. How is the programme holding up?
It is actually a pleasure to see the ADA (Aeronautical Development Agency) and HAL teams working as one towards making the LCA a success. Earlier team-work problems were largely due to personality clashes. It is a very homogenous effort now. 214 flights have been completed, and Prototype Vehicle -2 (PV2) should take off soon. We are just waiting for the actuators (devices which move the control surfaces) from Moog, which should come shortly. Work on the Limited Series Production of eight aircraft has already begun. And there is the expectation of a Rs 4000 crore order for 40 LCA, including eight trainer versions. As for the interim purchase, various options are currently being considered. Nothing has been decided.
Q: How do you think Indian aviation is positioned to take advantage of the high precision, stand-off range and real time, “sensor-to-shooter-to-commander” links that are revolutionising military technology?
The key is to develop a good synergy between DRDO labs, academic institutions, and industry, both public sector and private. We will not be able to take on everything and do it ourselves. We have to explore co-productions, joint ventures, as we are already doing. The ancillary private industry, especially in electronics is coming up very well. We have outsourcing capacity, and as on March 31, we have seen more than 862 firms with orders worth Rs 98 crore just for last year – and that is without material cost included. In the current year, we have targeted Rs 200 crore of outsourcing.
Q: The Saras 14-seater Light Transport Aircraft (LTA) being developed by the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL), with HAL involvement, appears to be getting delayed. Can you give us an update? And is there a market niche for such an aircraft?
High speed taxi trials are already going on (at the HAL airport). We should see the first flight by the end of May. And there is definitely a market for the aircraft. But I would like to see more support for it from our civil aviation industry. More than Rs 70 crore is coming from CSIR (Council for Scientific and Industrial Research), and we have pitched in with quite a bit, for the wings, the landing gear, and three other work packages which HAL is responsible for. More support will make a big difference to the programme.
Q: There is a plan for a replacement for the HPT-32 basic flight trainer for the IAF…
Yes, the project proposal has been finalised, and it should get approved soon. The HPT-32 is a piston-engined trainer, and what we are planning is a turbo-prop, with tandem seating. The IAF training command (headquartered in Bangalore) has already approved it, and we should see clearance from Air Headquarters soon.
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