Let’s just say there is an 80 to 90% chance it’s already happening. This is Feb already and it does not appear there will be any continuation to buy Russian kits. Everyday that passes, the greater the chances.

The facts remain: There is a J-11B as officially mentioned in PLAAF journal, there is a J-11 that flew with both WS-10A engines in latter end of 2003 and the Chinese stopped ordering kits (which has the engines) on May 2004.

Crobato, with all due respect, chance still remains chance. Till some actual PLAAF pilot/ insider or Russian supplier comes onboard and details whats happening- much of what you are saying remains conjecture.

And if effects etc are so easy to guage and provide accurate information- I am still waiting for the actual confirmed PLAAF attrition in 2003-04..or 04-05..

But I am glad to note that you now stress upon “probable” vis a vis “confirmed” which was the case earlier.

Thank jagan. He found it from another website and uploaded it.

Good show. Is the display on the right changed as well? Cant make out as this thread isnt loading fully.

Dont mix up things! India is getting the carriers and the other Islamic state is getting the Los Angeles class subs.

And I’ll go grab some aspirin thinking about the logic of it all and the discussion which sparked this thought.

insha-allah, the PN shall get 25 seawolf subs soon and rule the arabian sea. I hereby demand that our pak members contribute to a beer-n-mutton biryani feast for the rest of us here. and please hurry up, I am hungry 😉

Should it be called a Seawolf class contribution or a Los Angeles class contribution?

I mean, the PN may not get Seawolfs in the numbers they desire, the US not being able to keep up with demand and all that..so a few Los Angeles class subs should be good enough?

Dont you think thats reasonable?

Nitin: regarding the sentence written about the Bison in the JDW piece, to be fair to the author I think the delay he mentions is in reference to missiles not the aircraft upgrades themselves. That’s how I read it anyway and why I assumed it was in the sub-sction headed “Missiles”.

Best regards

Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News

Steve,

The DRDO has never been involved with respect to any of the Bisons missiles!
The Bisons armament is purely Russian at present! The KAB’s, RVV-AE’s, R73E’s…

Also, he says: “The DRDO has delayed retrofitting 125 MiG-21 bis fighters with Russian, French and Israeli imports by more than five years”

The point is- this is the epitome of shoddy research and the level to which he’ll go to attack the DRDO.

Its HAL- Nasik, which is responsible for the upgrade integration, and the kits are provided by SOKOL.

Furthermore, the Indian Parliament examined the Bison in detail and the reasons for the delay were multinational not some hocus pocus attributed to the DRDO.

Plus, there are a million other bloopers in the article. Not just this.

If you wish I can PM you the exact errors. Or post them here. It’ll be a waste of my time, but what the heck!

Just look at the cite Indian picked up!

“a typical rbedi para:
“The failure of the Trishul short-range SAM and Dhanush ship-launched medium-range ballistic missile to enter service, led to the three locally designed and built Delhi-class destroyers being armed with Russian SA-N-7 Uragans. The navy also acquired the 300 km-range 3M-54E1 (Klub N) vertical-launch missile system to equip three Russian Krivak III (Project 1135.6)-class frigates, the last of which joined the service last year.””

The Indian MOD report notes:
1. Dhanush (the stabilizer cum launching assembly for the Naval SSM prithvi) has been successfully developed.
2. What the heck does a SSM have to do with a SAM!
3. The DRDO gave clearance to the Navy to import Baraks and SA-N-7’s and moved Trishul back to R&D, the Navy is happy- whats Bedi’s problem!

And all the other quotes about DRDO being this, that….

I just linked the MOD annual report …just go through the DRDO section…does Bedi mention *any* of those umpteen Electronic Warfare, Naval (SONAR, EW, Torpedo etc), AF upgrade projects, successfully productionised by the DRDO?

He conveniently “forgets” them whilst conducting his muck and mud campaign. All attributed to unnamed sources.

As regards DRDO not working with the services- what a hoot!
Heres the latest:

Move to revive air surveillance project
Sridhar K Chari
Tribune News Service

Bangalore, October 2
With the Cabinet clearing last month the Rs 1,700-crore project to develop an airborne surveillance system, the Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS) in Bangalore is gearing up to revive an effort that tragically came to an end in January, 1999, when its modified HS-748 Avro, with a turning rotodome on top, crashed killing eight persons, including DRDO personnel, Air Force pilots and engineers.

DRDO sources told The Tribune that the new project involved the purchase of three Embraer aircraft from Brazil, known as the EMB-145, and the development of an indigenous radar system. Before this deal came through, the Russian IL-76 was also being considered. The purchase of the planes itself would cost Rs 600 crore, while Rs 550 crore has been earmarked for radar development.

The EMB-145 is actually a variant of the EMB-135, which the IAF is purchasing for VIP transport. The EMB-145 has a 48-seater length fuselage, and will come with strength reinforcements to enable a radar to be mounted on top. A key difference from the earlier project is that there will be no turning rotodome, with the radar scanning the target area by rotation. Instead, the radar will be a fixed, phased array radar, to be developed by the LRDE, where only the radar beam will rotate.

It may be recalled that in the 1999 accident near Arakkonam, the post-accident inquiry had revealed that the rotodome had come lose, and hit the tail of the Avro, resulting in the catastrophic loss of control. Many existing AWACS (Airborne Early Warning and Control System) like the American E-3, however, do successfully employ a turning rotodome.

The LRDE had continued radar and signal processing technology development, for the multi-mode radar (MMR) on the light combat aircraft. “All that work will be put to good use in developing a radar system for the surveillance project.
The project is expected to be realised in about seven years, with a year being set aside for user evaluation. The IAF, in fact, will be closely involved even in the development phase.
While CABS is planning some middle-level recruitment to build up a team for the project, many personnel will also be repositioned from within the DRDO. But another key difference in approach will be that a lot of private industry is likely to be involved at various levels. The fabrication, software and other support services for the aerospace industry are now being increasingly provided by the private sector in Bangalore, and almost all major aerospace projects, whether in the DRDO or the HAL are benefiting.

And all that stuff about the Private sector not being involved in defense yet is errant nonsense.

I could give you a list of sites which show exactly what the pvt sector is doing in every Indian project. From system design to complete assembly!

In fact, check out the above as well.

A bunch of my mates are making good money working in the very organizations which do work for DRDO etc.

BTW, all that nonsense of DPSU’s only being license assemblers- perhaps he should look at their annual financial statements and see the proportion of retained earnings reinvested in R&D. He’d be unpleasantly surprised. BEL in fact, manufactures a wide range of locally designed EW, radar and sonar systems and has now been tapped for outsourcing by Israeli firms.

I posted the details earlier! Last year, the Army ordered 1000 plus DRDO designed, BEL manufactured BFS radars!

The high proportion of funds BEL pours into R&D, its local designs PLUS its codevelopment programs are the reason reports like these emerge.
AW & ST July 2004

Better performing contractors shun growth for growth’s sake in favor of a more balanced approach to their businesses

A disciplined management team combined with a well-executed business strategy is an unbeatable combination in any industry. So it was in Aviation Week & Space Technology’s Top-Performing Companies study for 2004.

General Dynamics Corp., which ranked No. 1 in the large-company category twice before, took top honors for a third time. Bharat Electronics Ltd. (BEL), based in Bangalore, India, was the top-rated medium-size company in its peer group. Ranked No. 1 in the small-company category was explosives-detection manufacturer InVision Technologies, which was acquired by General Electric Co. earlier this year. (Rankings are based on data for fiscal 2003.)

Some of the names no doubt will resonate with many Aviation Week readers. Among large aerospace/defense companies, General Dynamics Corp. ranked No. 1–for the third time in three of the last four years. But the study, also known as the Index of Competitiveness, is the kind of rigorous analysis in which highly entrepreneurial names can emerge from relative obscurity, globally speaking.

Two such organizations came into sharp focus, backed by some impressive performance figures. Ranked at the top of the medium-size category of companies is Bharat Electronics Ltd. (BEL), headquartered in India. The defense electronics designer and manufacturer is a perennial award-winner for research and development in a country that’s rapidly acquiring a worldwide reputation for engineering excellence. In the No. 1 position in the small-company category is Invision Technologies, whose explosive-detection systems are in high demand around the world.

As part of the study, Aviation Week and CSFB HOLT examined which ones improved their overall operating performances the most between 2002 and 2003, the last fiscal year for which data were available.

Or this one:

This section is a treasure trove of companies such as *Bharat Electronics Ltd. (BEL) at http://www.bel india.com/homel.htm. BEL has 2,000 engineers working in nine manufacturing units, including defense communications, radars and telecommunications.

JED 1998

Or this:

JED Jan 2005, New C^2 for Indian Army Field Artillery

India’s state-owned Bharat Electronics Ltd. (BEL) (Bangalore, India) has been received an initial order from the Indian army for a new automated command-and-control (C^2) system for field-artillery operations, dubbed the Shakti system. The initial order calls for the delivery of over 50 Shakti systems, with a potential for over 1,000 to be procured by the Indian Army in the future.

The Indian Army will soon be receiving new command-and-control systems for its 120mm, 130mm, and 155mm guns (examples of the latter are shown here). Currently, there is no integrated command-and-control system in service with India’s artillery systems, which number over 2,000.

The Shakti Artillery Command and Control System (ACCS) will be used by the Indian Artillery. The multimillion-dollar program is slated for completion by 2005, and the Indian Army plans to acquire ACCS systems for its entire artillery force of 120mm, 130mm, and 155mm guns.

The Shakti system consists of networked computers and interactive terminals that provide automated command and control of field artillery operations, as well as data management, said a BEL executive. The elements of the network will include a battery command post, a reserve battery command post, a regimental command post, a fire-direction center, a fire-control center, and an observation post – all linked through a wide-area network. The system will be used by all elements of India’s artillery forces, from headquarters commanders to the individual gun operators. (For more on artillery command-and-control systems, see “Incoming or Outgoing?” JED, June 2002, p. 51).

An Indian Army official said the Shakti system will enable artillery forces to deliver fires quickly and accurately when required and to utilize resources more efficiently by managing deployments to achieve the optimal gun densities in critical areas. He said the Shakti ACCS is the first and one of the most critical new command-and-control systems being fielded for the Indian Army. Currently, there is no integrated command-and-control system in service with India’s artillery systems, which number over 2,000.

Sources likened the Shakti ACCS to artillery command-andcontrol systems in service with the US Army, but the technology used in the Shakti system has been developed in India by the Center for Artificial Intelligence and Robotics (Bangalore, India), a defense laboratory run by the Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO), India’s state-owned defense-research agency. – Pulkit Singh

BEL and DRDO working together? Supplying state of the art C3I equipment to the Indian Army! Sacrilege! Oh the horror of it all!

Or this:

http://www.cmcltd.com/news_events/press_reports/200404apr/20040407_DRDO_devlp_moblie.htm

DRDO Develops Mobile Electronic Warfare System
Financial Express, Mumbai, April 07, 2004

NEW DELHI: A state-of-the-art mobile electronic warfare system, “Samyukta,” developed indigenously by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was handed over to the Indian Army recently.

The integrated electronic warfare system Samyukta Communication and Control block is uniquely configured for frequencies from high frequency (HF) to millimetre wave for reconnaissance, direction finding, and position fixing, listing, prioritising and jamming adversaries’ emissions.

According to VK Atre, scientific adviser to the defence minister and the brain behind Samyukta, “this system will ensure dominance over electro-magnetic spectrum which basically means it will jam enemy surveillance signals and voice and radar signals while ensuring its own signals are not jammed by the enemy. It is described as a force multiplier.”

Samyukta, the largest electronic warfare project so far in the country, has been built jointly by DRDO, Bharat Electronics Ltd, Electronics Corporation of India Ltd and Corps of Signals of the Indian Army. It will be moved to the forward areas in a few months for field testing and the entire system will be deployed by 2005, Mr Atre said.

Chief of the Army Staff General NC Vij has described the development of Samyukta as a dream come true for the Indian Army. In the fully deployed situation, Samyukta will comprise 145 vehicles carrying sophisticated systems with a coverage of 7,000 km range.

Other partners in building Samyukta included CMC and Tata Power Company Ltd (TPCL). Together, they met the challenge of developing integrated real time command and control software having 10 million lines of code even though financially it was not as attractive as conventional business software. In fact, 40 small industries enabled the quick realisation of the goal by developing and producing the super components indigenously that had been denied by the advanced countries.

Hmmm….what was that Bedi said about DRDO not delivering etc? And not relying on the private sector?

Or this:

BEL gets top software design rating

PTI[ FRIDAY, DECEMBER 17, 2004 11:22:38 AM]
BANGALORE: Defence major Bharat Electronics Limited’s software technology centre in Bangalore has received the top software design rating – the Software Engineering Institute’s (SEI) Capability Maturity Model (CMM) Level 4 rating.

The centre is part of BEL’s Central Development and Engineering Group, according to a company statement.

It develops software largely for defence requirements such as radar, communication equipment, electronic warfare systems, control systems and global positioning systems,
including embedded software, the statement said.

The Capability Maturity Model for software (CMM) of the Software Engineering Insititute, Melon University, Pittsburgh, Pensylvania, USA, is a framework that describes the key elements of an effective software process. The CMM describes an evolutionary improvement path from an ad hoc, immature process to a mature, disciplined process.

The CMM covers practice for planning, engineering and managing software development and maintenance.

“The centre has global strengths such as infrastructure (tools and facilities) and comprehensive engineering practices”, it said.

BDL- the missile agency, makes both its own missiles -Agnis and Prithvis, is working on a CMDS, has made its inhouse simulators for ATGM’s, makes a rifle training sim for the Army, has devised a modified FLAME launcher which fires both east bloc and western ATGM’s, manufactures locally designed test equipment, small arms, DRDO designed torpedo’s…..AND…has tieups to make Milans, Konkurs, Refleks, Baraks, Italian towed decoys, the IGla-S.

It is now working on a life extension program for the IAF’s Pechoras along with a Polish firm.

Lack of ability anyone?

In short, Bedi is the epitome of dishonest journalism and signifies exactly why Janes has such p!ss poor coverage of Indian defence. Their reports are so overwhelmingly negative and unbalanced that Indian defence organizations routinely avoid the likes of Bedi and Janes. They know that the feller will twist whatever they say anyhow. At the last AeroIndia a Bharat Dynamics Ltd rep asked me if I was from Janes- when i said NO, then he proceeded to converse. Dude had no problems talking to some SEAsian trade publication either!

Thats the rep Bedi has and the “value addition” he has created for Janes.

Now I can post a Million other things- non glamourous yet essential things that DRDO et al have delivered. But I’d be wasting my time. Because this useless excuse for a journalist will write similar trash, without compunction, next time around as well and the dorks at JDW will publish his bile without even bothering to cross verify.

Heres one last thing which BEL did. Lack of design ability?

Gearing up for India’s electronic election

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3493474.stm

Over one million electronic voting machines (EVMs) are required to cover this vast nation, from the Himalayas down to Kanyakumari on the southern tip.

India has an electorate of more than 668 million, covering 543 parliamentary constituencies.

The Election Commission, based in Delhi, is confident it can conduct the poll well.

“This will be a historic election,” says chief election commissioner TS Krishnamurthy.

Overseas interest

NN Simha, general manager of the government-run Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) which is based in Bangalore and is one of the two suppliers of the machines, says the company has already provided 447,000 EVMs.

“We will be delivering another 60,000 soon,” he says.

It is easy to operate, even by the illiterate
NN Simha,
machine supplier

The other manufacturer is also a state-run undertaking, the Electronics Corporation of India, based in Hyderabad.

Several other countries have shown an interest in the machines.

“We are working on a model for European countries and also for the US,” Mr Simha told the BBC News Online.

“It is a complicated job. The quality expected is very high.”

Exports to other south Asian countries and Africa are also in the pipeline.

November debut

As many as 200 technicians at BEL, which also manufactures electronic warfare equipment for India’s military, have been working on the project.

They have been told to meet a deadline brought forward by the Election Commission after the poll was called early by the Bharatiya Janata Party-led government

The elections had been scheduled for October.

When the EVMs had an experimental outing in five state elections in November, they drew a fascinated reaction from the electorate in rural areas.

“You won’t believe the kind of response,” said Mr Simha.

“Some of them were thrilled to punch the machines. I have seen so many happy villagers.”

He rejected criticism that rural voters, used to balloting with a thumb impression, were not comfortable with hi-tech gadgets.

“It is easy to operate, even by the illiterate,” says Mr Simha.

Expecting balanced reports from the likes of Bedi….I’d rather wager upon something easier…like the Indian soccer team winning the world cup…:rolleyes:

I think Pakistan should go for the Los Angeles Class or the Seawolf class subs.

They would make a fine addition to all the F/A-22’s and the E-2C’s and the Gripens and the Erieye’s, the Pakistanis are about to acquire.

Anything lesser than the Los Angeles or Seawolf class would be an insult to the fine people of Pakistan.

I stated my opinion. Furthermore, Bedi is also a dishonest individual. The above article contains clear instances of sheer chicanery!

For example:

“The DRDO has delayed retrofitting 125 MiG-21 bis fighters with Russian, French and Israeli imports by more than five years “

In his dishonesty, Bedi “forgot” to note:
1. Its HAL which is outfitting the Bisons NOT DRDO

2. The delay was due to : Russia- India price negotiations floundering, delay on the part of the IAF in selecting foreign made subsystems, and Russia having issues with subsystem integration and component development .

Source, Comptroller and Auditor General of India, 2001

3. The Bison is firmly on track now and the upgrade will be finished this year.
Note:

Upgrade of Indian MiG-21bis to Be Completed in Beginning of 2005

((Upgraded to MiG-21-93 variant. So far 100 have been modified with “Kop’yo” radars supplied by Fazotron-NIIR. It appears a total of 125 aircraft will be upgraded if you friendly translator understands the number correctly: 105 radars sent so far, 2 more to arrive soon and 18 more in the first quarter of next year. Title says the rest. Not further translated.))

Source: 27.12.04, Voenno-Promyshlennyy Kur’er

By the middle of last year itself:

MiG-21 (BIS UPG): MiG-21 Bis
aircraft are under series upgrade at HAL
(Nasik Division) and are being fitted with
latest state-of-the-art avionics systems. The
inclusion of new systems enhances the
capabilities of the aircraft. 64 aircraft have
been upgraded by HAL so far.

That is from the Indian Ministry of Defence report 2003-2004.
http://mod.nic.in/reports/welcome.html

Is HAL DRDO?:D

Rest of the article is similar motivated tripe. I could spend time proving each and every one of his statements to be stupid editorializations, but then again- I have better uses for my time. 😀

He has a bee in his bonnet about the DRDO since they treat him like faecal matter, but that does not give him the right to conjure up false claims and use them to attack the organization. Coming to think of it, perhaps thats why DRDO treats him like faecal matter in the first place.

The sad part is that by hiring such buffoons, its JDW whose credibility suffers in the end.