Nitin_VWhy not buying used MiG-29 and upgrade them to SMT ? There are enough airframes around, and if one can belief in some sources the whole aircraft comes for 4-5 million $. Add some newbuild MiG-29K and everything is fine…
Buys some time to introduce the MCA/PAK-FA.
Good suggestion, the IAF does want to boost its numbers and considerable spares and logistics involvement for the MiG29 already exists.
Nitin_VHello guys,
Inclusion of Dassault’s Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon makes this competion quite interesting. would it be possible to get 126 of these for $9bn???
May I ask sir, where will the 9B come from? Spending so much on a 1 time buy would be really really silly of us.
Nitin_VNitin thats good point. But when IAF was evaluating M2K-5 and Sukhois initially, IAF gve thumbs up to superiority of Sukhois over M2K-5’s. Thats how SU-30 MKI’s were purchased. So why not a MCRA specific SU?
BG, you are missing the point- you may be correct that a MKI’ed Su35 may be superior to a std Mirage 2000-5, but:
1. Relying on the Su again will give Russia/ SU undue leverage over the IAF
2.Developing a new a/c plus integrating new avionics may again create a hassle and a delay- thus rendering the quick acquisition a flop.
2 is why the IAF actually explicitly notes that they are negotiating for the 2000- V, off the shelf, already developed and available.
Nitin_Vflex what does that mean , I was mearly stating the fact from post , I again quote it
Beyond-visual-range air combat missiles like the Vympel-built R-77, R-27ER1 and R-27ET1, and R-73E within-visual range air combat missiles. The maximum payload is 4,000kg.Also have a look at this
More fuel in an enormous dorsal ‘hump’ tank attached aft of the cockpit to increase the aircraft’s fuel capacity to 4,775kg. Also added are 1,150-litre tanks underneath the wings and a 1,520-litre tank under the fuselage, which ensure a ferry range of 2,900km. Even more fuel could be stored in the wing roots, which extend to the front of the aircraft, if the vents for the additional air intake were removed.All this extra Fits and Joints for extra fuel capacity will affect its manuveribility
Also this news of rethinking on twin engine than single engine , and a $9 Billion bounty etc etc , where are we suppose to get 9 Billion Dollar for a mere 125 Aircraft , initally it was suppose to be $ 3 Billion , are these mere rumours , never mind make a nice read
I know- the 9B made me ROTFLMAO.
The next report will read India keeps 32 B for purchasing the Sopwith Camel?!
I mean where do these fellows pull the numbers from? Isnt there any proof checking, editorial oversight whatsoever?
Nitin_Vagainst J-10s? F-16Es possibly?
Yes. The Mirage 2000 V is an extremely potent aircraft, all said and done.
The J10 will still take some time to mature- I would keep the Su30MKK as the upper end of the threat which would pose a stiff challenge to the 2000 V’s. But then thats what the MKI’s are around for.
Nitin_VThat makes soo much more sence then wasting money on Mirage 2000’s and MRCA’s we are going to end up like Italy before world war 2 with the best Aircraft and find out when war actually does come years down the line that we are obsolete and have no money to spend on new aircraft because we bought crappy 1970’s airframes.
You know Matt, the point you made is the only true (-) against the Mirage purchase.
The IAF is going to be spending gazillions of $ on the Mirage 2000 and MKI and is going to finish inducting them by the time the Raptors will be fully ops in the USAF. The constant upgrade path can mitigate that to some extent, but even so the need for the PAK FA is vital.
However, regionally speaking – the M2000 will be ok against the PAF and the PLAAF, and I guess thats what the IAF factored in.
Nitin_VAFIK thats what i said first that a MMCRA MKI has to be made. read my previous posts.
Now try putting the substandard parts from CIS on Mirages you will have mig-21 effect. IMHO, MiG’s were given stepmotherly treatment. Treat mirages like Mig’s and you will know the difference.
BG, we treated the MiGs just fine, but the spares dried up- we had to do all sorts of stunts to make them serviceable and get the spares flowing.
The IAF does not want that sort of a headache again. Suppose that Russia again goes to the cleaners…and the MKI fleet is somehow hit, since the indigenization was still proceeding…thats where the Mirages come in, as a failsafe.
During the 80’s we had to ground our Bis’s thanks to a engine flame problem…but our Air Defense was still around thanks to the Mirages..
When the MiG’s hit the low serviceability mark, we still had a Jaguar fleet and a Mirage fleet to hit back.
Thats redundancy- if we rely only on Sukhois- we
lose the redundancy
give Sukhoi/ Russia too much bargaining power
That is why we have always balanced our acquisitions between East and West
Cheers.
Nitin_VIf you can’t read that its not my fault. I posted exactly from Jane’s which clearly says what myself and Arthur said. But harry and nitin have a ego problem, simple as that! You both are claiming that it was IAF idea which is not. Next read text which has IAF with a little , a little more objectively.
Stop trying to drag Arthur into your sorry mess. It truly reflects very well upon you that you need to suck upto someone else to “push” your views.
ASTE has clearly mentioned that it validated the Magic 2’s on the Jaguar.
End of story.
Your logic- that just because they are Indian they must be lying, is infantile to say the least.
As regards an ego problem, dont make me laugh. Your silly flamebaiting here and elsewhere and repeated calls on other fora to “support you”, in the past are legion.
Harry and I have both provided text from those who worked with the Jag first hand. In contrast all you can do is jump around, wave your hands in the air and shriek about bad bad Harry and Nitin. I am charmed.
In the past, harry has said that news from FI was bogos, you need more proof. Check your own posts.
Use the search function and you will see it was not merely Harry, but many others as well who pointed out discrepancies in FI’s reports.
AFM, article was written by your own IAF staff member, need I say more. Read carefully;)
So? The Group Captain has written for AFM previously and is well regarded for his work. BR merely took permission from AFM.
Of course only an IAF man could talk of ASTE authoritatively.
ASTE is run by the IAF. But wait, you didnt know that either did you?
R-555-II was a typo, should read R-550-II . Wow you even catch people’s typo, good job!
Typos are the least of your problems, enough said.
Nitin_VWhat you have not achieved is accepting that YOU ARE WRONG! Call other people names is your “forte”. Keep it up. Besides, according to your understanding Su-30 MKI is an INDIAN aircrafts What else is left, you have going to the moon how about the sun??
Saleem, I suggest you stop frothing at the mouth at the evil Indians. If you dont know something, ask, we will educate you. Merely snarling, spitting and drooling does nothing.
Now if you can behave as an adult- a hard task but hey, I had to ask- realize this. The Jaguar International had significant input from India in its IAF specific variants, especially in terms of avionics, weapons and sensors.
An IAF Group Captain quite categorically mentions the details. He was there, you werent. So keep up your juvenile behaviour- SHOUTING merely proves tat you are acting rabid and dont have any facts to the contrary.
Only you would try and claim the Su30MKI as being Indian. Now is Sukhoi to deal with the likes of you?
Oh, harry and party of know everything, check Jane’s ATWA 1976-77, it also says the same thing I wrote from Jane’s ATWA 1988-89. So, who is the flamer now? Now everything!
Yes and Janes knows much more than ASTE crew, those who flew the Jaguar in IAF service and were part and parcel of ASTE. Grow up and ditch your nationalistic bile at the door. This has nothing to do with Pakistan and spitting and snarling in a topic merely because it refers to India is plain silly.
Get over this childish behavior of whatever came out of your own Indian publication has become the word of truth whilst everybody else, including Jane’s and FI are bogus.
You really need to read and stop dissembling.
AIR FORCES MONTHLY is NOT an Indian publication.
Its well catalogued that Janes, and FI do make errors. In another thread recently, the FI Air forces of the world lineup had significant errors.
Nitin_VI am quoting from Jane’s not from any other source about Agave radar
That pretty much shows how shoddy Janes can be and how silly it is to rely upon them as being infallible.
As Harry noted the Agaves were a feature to be introduced on the IM’s in IAF service. As are the Elta 2032’s on them now. Perhaps Janes should now claim that Jaguar Internationals come with the Elta 2032 as standard. :rolleyes:
Nitin_VAgain, Jaguar was equiped with overwing AAM prior to any deals with India, that’s word from the get go. India “might” have got another “licence” to improve certain missile e.g. R-555 II but RAF/BAe were already using the overwing pylon.
Why dont you learn something simple. Like reading.
Having said the above, according to Janes ATWA 1988-89 pp 133 under SEPECAT Jaguar International, “Jaguar International is the export version, first flown on 19 August 1976…Other customer options include overwing pylons compatible with Matra R.550 Magic or similar dogfight missile; multi-purpose radar such as the Thomson-CSF Agave;”
You really crack me up. The Jaguar first flew in 1976. The Magic 2 modification/ overwing pylons were implemented in 1981. This also ties in with Flood’s observation that the RAF Jags appeared with overwing AAM’s in the early 80’s.
Same page under Armament: “Jaguar International can also carry two Matra Magic air-to-air missile on overwing pylons,”
And you discovered something new? ROTFLMAO. The Jaguar international is what the IAF operates and it was modified with overwing pylons. Perhaps this discussion is too complicated for you. :D.
Try using a hard book with real pages for once for your source rather than being an addict to BR for the “real” numbers. 😉
Your incompetent flaming is so silly that it amuses me. You wouldnt be able to recognise a real book if it was handed to you on a platter, let alone read it. Best you stick to snorting tea leaves. :p
Grp Captain Kapil Bhargava was one of the IAF’s preminent test pilots and keenly involved with ASTE.
His article was first published in Air Forces Monthly. BR hosted it with his permission and AFM’s. 😀
His words prove that the Jags were first tested with the overwing Magics at ASTE and that they had a hand in it.
Nitin_VAndrei,
Per a LCA test pilot, the IAF now acknowledges the potential of the LCA to replace the MiG27 and Jag in the strike role as well, not just the MiG21. The older ones will see the LCA supplant them. The weapons trials will include all the ordnance being inducted on the upgraded Jags/ MiG27’s. Throughout the late 70’s and 80’s, the MiG21 and its improved variants allowed the IAF to maintain a qualitative and quantitative improvement vis a vis its regional rivals. The LCA will similarly provide the bulk of the IAF’s fleet while the MKI’s and future inductions provide the spearhead. Furthermore, the IAF wishes to transition from a 39.5 Sq to a 55 Sq. one. So there is no shortage of requirements.
Nitin_VThis actually supports what I said:
From Air International, as quoted in BR.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft/Specs/Jaguar.html
The SEPECAT/HAL Jaguar forms five operational squadrons in the IAF – four strike squadrons (No.5, No.14, No.16 and No.27) operating the IS variant and one maritime attack squadron (No.6) operating the IM variant. The IB dual seat trainer serves with the strike squadrons. An article by Jon Lake in the December 2001 issue of Air International has provided a lot of vital and important inputs into the Jaguar saga in the Indian Air Force and some of it has been reproduced below.
Purchased in 1978 to meet a requirement for a deep penetration strike aircraft (DPSA), the Jaguar has served with the IAF for over 20 years with the first of 18 ‘on loan’ aircraft from the Royal Air Force (RAF) entering service in July 1979. These consisted of 16 Jaguar GR.1 (Interim) and 2 Jaguar T.2 (Interim) aircraft. Two of these aircraft was lost in service and one aircraft was used for research & development of the DARIN avionics suite and the installation of the over-wing MATRA Magic air-to-air missile.
Please note that the DARIN was pretty much an Indian driven development using OEM systems . Hence ASTE’s involvement in the overwing Magic installation is quite credible.
From the HORSE’s mouth, gentlemen:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Info/Aircraft/Jaguar-25Yrs.html
Quarter Century of the Jaguar in India
GROUP CAPTAIN KAPIL BHARGAVA VM (RETD)
At ASTE the over-wing missile rails were used to install and clear MATRA R550 Magic short-range infrared-homing air-to-air missiles for self-defence.
Nitin_VDon’t send me to BAe but you need to give a source for your wild theory. Jag International is the name of the project along with export program which started waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay but in early 70’s
Kindly look above.
Nitin_VAre you sure about that, Nitin? I think the overwing pylons were part of the whole set of options for the Jaguar International from the outset.
The pic shows an Ecuadorian Jag ES with overwing pylons, and while i don’t know the full delivery details of all individual Jags, Ecuador got it’s first Jags in January 1977. India didn’t get it’s first Jaguar until 1979, the first being one of the borrowed RAF machines.
EDIT: forgot the pic, sorry.
Arthur, ASTE/ India was with the Jags from the outset- the eponymous DARIN, assembled from COTS components was developed by the IAF, Local industry utilising COTS components from prominent OEM’s. So its not infeasible that the particular development of the Magic 2’s overwing development had the local yokels from here involved in it. The above was also remarked in a blurb from the ASTE which I read, plus it was also reported in a prominent aerospace mag down here- Vayu which has ok contacts with the official blokes and publishes stuff verbatim. Since it does that, its far more reliable than our press, the less said the better.
Incidentally, per the terms of the IAF/HAL – BAe contract, any development/ modification developed in India was available to BAe free of charge. This was a cause for some heartburn later, as HAL developed certain flight critical modifications to the Sepecat Jaguar (BR has a nice writeup on one such incident- google for “A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems” + Jaguar) and these were taken up by BAe without royalty payments to the HAL.
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