WL747To be fair, I’ve always found Rich to be upfront.
I do understand Pete’s concerns, and maybe as a recent forum contributor he hasn’t seen the full story over the years. Perhaps he has as a ‘lurker’. In Richard’s defence, I’ve always felt that the posts he has made over the years have been conscise, without waffle and to the point. After his departure a couple of years ago, there did seem to be a lack of openness and viewing from the forum, I had concerns about the direction things were going. I didn’t realise what was going on in the background. However with the aircraft in the hands of Dave Woods, I have little concerns.
Bottom line is that if you want to see an aircraft preserved, or better still running – especially one as large as a Shackleton, the you either have to get involved or put your hand in your pocket. I have donated in the past to aircraft projects in the past without knowing too much about the people imvolved, but not all come under the Charities Commision. These are projects just staffed by a few enthusiasts who will fail without any support. It’s common sense never to give large amounts of money until you are satisfied with the bona fides of the people involved, and/or the progress made. And don’t give more than you can afford to lose.
The Shackleton with those large engines doesn’t run on unicorn farts or fairy poo. Fuel doesn’t come cheap. Why not just pay a visit, book a seat on a taxi run and meet the people. Best way forward IMHO.
Kind Regards
Scotty
WL747Given its location this one’s probably well-known to you, scotavia, but it was my first ever visit to the Elgin area earlier this year and the local filling station with Buccaneer XW530 displayed there. We were quite amused by the stbd Spey gently windmilling
I gather that his Buck was recently up for sale. I heard a rumour there was a good chance of scrapping.
WL747I think we should get any thoughts that HMS Illustrious is ‘unseaworthy’ out of our heads; she is not now, nor was she ever, unseaworthy in the accepted sense of the word!
From a preservation point of view I doubt it would be possible to find a comparable warship in such good condition anywhere in the world; she had a £40million refit in 2011 and was only decommissioned at the end of August 2014.
£40m isn’t really a lot of money for a ship refit.
If up to a half of that is the cost of materials, then assuming an hourly rate of £20, that is only a million man hours. A million man hours is a lot less than it seems. That’s 500 people working 8 hrs a day for 8 months. But all the ships I work on usually have two or three shifts a day, you could divide the time taken refitting in three. That rough estimate doesn’t include the cost of the pre-job planning or the procurement process, so the estimates on ship labour or cost of equipment would be lower.
Kind Regards,
Scotty
WL747Ships of the size of a carrier need considerable space to berth and if considered a static museum location then they have occupied a site with commercial prospects .In this age of shrinking budgets and the need to make access safe with transport links,parking then you struggle to find a location for long term use. There are examples of well meant ship museums and commercial ship static projects which have failed when land port owners change the terms or obstruct planning permission even when the land has been purchased.
Sending this carrier for scrap is understandable in a time when pressure on berths in suitable locations is great.commercial berths make money .
Totally hits the nail on the head.
With a draught such as an aircraft carrier, there are only going to be so many ports that can take a ship that size. It’s never going to be in a Navy base as a tourist attraction, therefore it’s going to have to be a major commercial port. I can tell you now the fees for mooring in these ports is eye-watering. Plus, getting access to a commercial port isn’t supposed to be easy, with ISPS regulations (security) and the fact that a commercial quay is often not a safe place to be, it’s a complete non-starter.
This means space is going to have to found as a designated tourist quayside such as what is used for Royal Yacht Britannia, in a commercial port with a deep enough draught – in an area where the tourism income can offset the massive costs of setting this up in a commercial port. I hate to say this, but such a place in the U.K. does not readily exist. Even if it did, the costs would be astronomical. Most of the boats I work on hang around outside port and spend as little time as possible alongside to minimise costs.
It may not be a popular thing to say, but HMS Belfast was involved in what is arguably the biggest armed conflict in the world so far. The Falklands was not a major conflict. Indeed it was a Herculean effort but only given the distances involved.
As has been mentioned elsewhere, the cost of just maintaining the hull will be enormous. You can’t just put a boat in the water and leave it. Corrosion treatments such as cathodic protection through sacrifical anodes or impressed current cost a fortune. And this would only maintain condition and would also have restoration costs and modification costs to allow the public to safely access the ship. I don’t know about aircraft carriers, but many of the machinery spaces on the ships I work on have stairways at around a 65 degree angle. Not very safe for many people to walk up and down.
So it is right that the MOD have decided to scrap her. The costs just to get her moored and safe for visiting would be tens of millions of pounds, possibly a hundred or more. The argument about the BBMF and Duxford etc pales in comparison. Besides, the MOD are not a museum service. I’m grateful for what they do provide but expecting an aircraft carrier to be preserved is never going to be a viable prospect in the U.K.
WL747Shackleton instrument panel anybody?
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Avro-Shackleton-aircraft-instrument-panel-/222073907163?nav=SEARCH
Regards,
Scotty
WL747Now, who hasn’t been to Dumfries recently then? 🙂
Quite happy to admit it’s me! It’s a bit out of the way for me to visit, but it’s good news about the expansion.
Fancy a Shack in them new hangars? :dev2:
Kind Regards,
Scotty
WL747It’s been about 5 years since I was last in Manchester, but the whole MOSI site was great. I really enjoyed it and thought given its location and the buildings it had that it was well laid out. It is a pity that this new development is going to adversely affect the site. I am sure there are other ways for network rail to get the connections they want.
IMHO the best place for the Shack (and the other exhibits) is exactly where they are. A city centre location with other Northern engineering exhibits give more of an attraction, and more footfall. I’m not sure the collection would do so well elsewhere in the area. That’s just my opinion and I’m sure that people will disagree, but perhaps they just need to get the building they are in sorted out. It has great upper galleries and the natural light is a definite bonus.
Kind Regards,
Scotty
WL747As for the suggestion that any place in Scotland would have it, that’s worth a laugh. No where to keep it indoors. Dumfries would be the only place that would have the space for it but that is pure conjecture. East Fortune’s acquisition policy needs a kick up the back-side, but that’s another story.
You’ve never been to Dumfries then? It’s tiny and in no way would they have room for a complete Shackleton. Ever thought also they might not want one?
East Fortune is not a bad museum, and would improve by kicking the Concorde out and putting the Shackleton in. There’s nothing to laugh about Scotland having a Shack, as they served in Scotland almost constantly throughout their career, at least 20 years longer than anywhere else in the RAF. To my knowledge there are no remaining Shackletons in Scotland unless the survival of WL798’s nose in the Elgin area is more than a rumour.
Kind Regards,
Scotty
WL747Ask the RAFM. They have a salty Dornier…..
WL747There are aircraft museums in Inverness and Dumfries, and a small collection in Montrose. None of these are under cover, so East Fortune would be the logical place. I do wonder if Concorde is still bringing in the visitor numbers now that the hype is over.
I haven’t been to the Dumfries Museum, but have been to the Inverness one, but the one thing that both facilities don’t have is space for a complete Shackleton. With one in as good condition as this one, Cosford or Hendon would be the RAF’s option I reckon. Unless Duxford can find space.
WL747I have made my opinions clear in other threads as to where I believe the Shackleton should be loaned to next. Anywhere up here would be good. :applause: Seems the type is, if anything, over-represented south of the border… just don’t bring up that MR1 that ended up in the skip at Strathallan.
Have to agree given that most of the type’s service was in Scotland and the AEW2 was exclusively in Morayshire. However apart from East Fortune, there’s nowhere for it to go, and it has to go under cover in my opinion. Get rid of the Concorde I reckon as it has zero connection to Scottish aviation.
Regards,
Scotty
WL747Cheers,
Has there been a definite decision it’s closing?
Scotty
WL747????????
Don’t mean to be a pedant, but perhaps a bit more background in the initial post as to whether there has been a final decision regards MOSI aviation hall would have been handy. Opening a thread with a statement like that is pretty bewildering.
We don’t all live nearby to see Manchester news. or get to visit the forum every five minutes so spare others a thought please.
WL747When were YOU last weighed before boarding a plane? What airlines do this as a matter of course? Name names of airlines please!
I get weighed every time I get on a chopper for work. Handy for calculating diet progress.
WL747Why? It’s a machine designed and built in Manchester and one that spent most of its service life either at St.Mawgan, St.Eval or Ballykelly. Doesn’t have any connection with Scotland other than the years it was based at Lossie as an AEW2.
What colour is the sky on your planet?
Scotland has more connection to the Shackleton than anywhere else apart from Manchester. First in service at RAF Kinloss and last in service at RAF Lossiemouth 1951 to 1991. 40 years continuous service. It is as appropriate to be in Scotland than anywhere else, even more so considering St Mawgan and Ballykelly said goodbye to their active Shackletons by 1971. Just because an individual airframe didn’t serve it’s full career in Scotland doesn’t mean it can’t be preserved there. When you go down that argument you are heading the way of the anorak spotter brigade.
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