rkumarI was sarcastic for the nuclear part …. it will bankrupt any small to mid size country. It requires lots of resources that is why India got limited numbers still these are too heavy to carry on… (I think I made my point).
Only SL can decide if they require a fighter plane, if yes then JF-17 is cheapest (someone said 15 million a piece) but we don’t know its real capabilities. But then it is not only plane but whole set of equipment and weapons etc and it seems China is ready to offer these via Pakistan to increase influence in IOR. So why don’t SL get the deal if it is really offered. Some might see it as anti India but SL have to decide what is good for it. Personally, I really don’t see any loss of SL or India, we expect SL don’t let other countries to use there land for spying or military use against us. Of course, we always suspect any China military hardware in our region but then we also get a chance to see and probe these.
India could provide LCA on soft loan (==gift, no offense against SL), but the problem is IAF need those planes first when those are there. So there is no chance for SL or any country to get LCA till 2025, even if DRDO would like to export. (Again no offense) SL can discuss with GoI, who may make an exception. But why would SL do that if they have already an offer?
rkumarWhich brings me back to the original point, perhaps Sri Lanka should invest in a nuclear weapons programme…you know, just in case.
Even better idea, another very good idea. Like Pakistan, China will be just too happy to gift some part of its inventory. Then Sri Lanka can threat India, if Indian fisherman catch even one fish in our waters we will nuke India :highly_amused:
Like Y-20 Bacon said Sri Lanka should re-align itself with China and Pakistan. They will be the 3rd Chinese state after NK and Pak. Then we will live all happy in Asia as most of India’s neighborhood will be bankrupt or have no individual national identity.
JF-17, might be good idea as it is the cheapest and they don’t need to use it much. May be escorting civil plane or flying during national days etc, it will do good. I am not suggesting LCA, because we need those in big number in India first before we can gift any of these for free.
rkumarAnalysis: Now to build two more Nuclear-submarines quickly
With its nuclear reactor going “critical” on Friday night, INS Arihant (Sanskrit for Destroyer of enemies), India’s first indigenously developed nuclear-propelled and in the future nuclear-armed submarine has reached a significant landmark. It has certainly taken much longer than desirable.
The project, earlier known as ATV (Advanced Technology Vessel), began way back in 1998 but picked up pace only in mid-2000. In 2009, it was launched by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s wife, Gursharan Kaur, at a ceremony in Vizag, headquarter of India’s Eastern Naval Command.
Those associated with the project from its inception will be satisfied professionals today. Indian Navy designers, engineers, scientists of the Department of Atomic Energy, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and most importantly private sector companies led by the redoubtable Larsen & Toubro (L&T) deserve heartfelt thanks from the nation from having achieved the milestone.
In a rare public comment, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has congratulated those associated with the project. He said: “I am delighted to learn that the nuclear propulsion reactor on board INS Arihant, India’s first indigenous nuclear powered submarine, has now achieved criticality. I extend my congratulations to all those associated with this important milestone, particularly the Department of Atomic Energy, the Indian Navy and the Defence Research and Development Organization.”
Today’s development represents a giant stride in the progress of our indigenous technological capabilities. It is testimony to the ability of our scientists, technologists and defence personnel to work together for mastering complex technologies in the service of our nation’s security.
“I look forward to the early commissioning of the INS Arihant,” Dr Singh said.
That’s the next important step. Now that the reactor is a “go” the submarine will make shallow dives, complete the deep diving trials and prepare for the weapon trials of the torpedoes and missiles with dummy warheads to be ready for commissioning. Once at sea, the vessel will be gradually loaded with weapons and missiles. Each test will be conducted underwater for two months or more. This will include the Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile (SLBM). In the past the Navy has carried out 10 underwater launches of SLBMs code named ‘B05’ using a submerged pontoon to mimic a submarine. So far the range has been 700 km, while the bigger variant, known as the ‘K-4’, is designed to hit targets 3,500 km away.
The boat will then be commissioned in to the Indian Navy.
Top government sources indicate it is likely to happen over the next few months.
Like all professionals, the team that brought Arihant to this stage is now focused on the next two submarines in the series being built in the same shipyard. Their aim is to take the indigenous content of the next two nuclear submarines from the 40 to 60 and then to 70 per cent by the time the third submarine is ready for commissioning possibly by 2017. The combined team that has built Arihant is however proud of the fact that its digital control systems are designed completely locally which means no dependence on foreign vendors in this critical aspect.
According to Commodore Ranjit Rai, a former Director, Naval Operations and Naval Intelligence, this project has seen a huge collaborative effort.
Writing in a defence magazine some years ago, he had observed: “A large planning and design office called Akanksha (Hope) in New Delhi, has directed the ATV programme under the current Director General, retired Vice Admiral D S P Verma. Facilities at Vishakapatnam have been built by the DRDO, industry and the Indian Navy with BARC’s collaboration with funds and monitoring from the PMO.
“Two Admirals with technical expertise have headed the two large supporting complexes. One is the sprawling Defence Material Department (DMD) at Hyderabad, which collaborates with DRDO labs and BHEL for the heat exchanger turbine propulsion system, and MIDHANI for special steel requirements and other contractors. The large Submarine Building Centre (SBC), tucked behind high walls and barbed wires in the heart of Vishakapatnam, is where the hull was put together in sections provided from engineering and refinery reactor maker L&T. This company is investing heavily in ship building, and already has facilities at Hazira in Gujarat and Mazagon Docks in Mumbai (Bombay).
“Walchandnagar Industries provided the gear box and shafting as it does to Indian Navy’s Leanders. Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL), another state-run company, is fitting out the USHUS sonar, radars and the Combat Management System along with Tata Power Ltd which has a tieup with BAE Systems for the control pedestal. KSB pumps and Jindal pipes have also played a significant role. The submarine is coated with rubber anechoic tiles supplied by a rubber vulcanising firm in Mysore to provide stealth qualities.”
BARC, which steered the critical nuclear reactor installation programme in 1975, also manufactures and stores India’s fission and fusion atomic bombs. It has provided training to Navy’s technical officers in submarine nuclear technology.
“The ATV project has also set up a small submarine reactor training complex at Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research (IGCAR), Kalpakkam, near Chennai with facilities to test the 80 MW-plus pressure water reactors before insertion into submarine hulls. The reactor is normally sealed into a 600-ton titanium shell of about 10 metres in diameter.
According to a former Indian Navy nuclear boat Captain with command of INS Chakra, “the nuclear submarine operates like any other under water boat, except that it can stay under water for months and it is imperative that the key members learn to operate the computer controlled nuclear power plant… Each crew member has to be aware of all the possible emergencies including emergency shut down that can take place in the ensconced nuclear reactor.”
With two more nuclear-powered, nuclear-armed submarines on their way, this public-private partnership can only get stronger. For the moment though, it’s time to savour a major milestone in Indian Navy’s journey to becoming a powerful force in India’s immediate and extended neighbourhood.
rkumarP.S. QE class with have planes but operated in a different way, STOVL means you don’t need to permanently attach an airwing to maintain a minimum level of skill.
Thanks for info. I had the impression that England will have carrier but no planes. There is no doubt to my mind that England were/to some extent are masters of the air carrier and ship building art but their skills are rusting or fading away. Modular construction is relative new for India and west is again master in the art. But we are catching up slowly and surely.
The comparison I quoted was clearly an absolute measure, not adjusted for circumstances, which blows your point 1 out of the water. In absolute terms, IAC is (i) taking longer to build by any measure, & much longer by some measures & (ii) a far less ambitious project, being a single carrier, much smaller than QE, while the UK is building two carriers, with the build overlapping.
My point stay relevant for everything. Once again … you can’t construct something if basic material is not present. e.g. Could not import or seller refused to deliver for one or another reason. So, we had to go back and forth, first produce raw material then only start working on a final product. Some unfortunate accidents also delayed timeline. From our point of view, it will be a great achievement for India if IAC can be in service any time before 2020. It is irrelevant for us, if QE or PoW will be flying or not :very_drunk:
I am on high dose as nuclear boat went critical 😀 😀
rkumarWeellll . . . . not really. The first steel was cut for IAC in April 2005. Keel laying was February 2009. For Queen Elizabeth, first steel was cut in July 2009 & the equivalent of starting to lay the keel (work on the first hull block) began in January 2010. She’s currently scheduled for handover to the RN in 2017. Not quite the same rate.
I would say much better 😀 why
1. It is first time India is trying to build an aircraft carrier.
2. Steel was cut with most probably two sheets, as dock yard had waited for almost 4 years before local steel was produced and handed over.
3. IAC will have planes as compared to Queen Elizabeth
rkumarour friend rkumar has a quite strange way of viewing things…
the LCA is nowhere near being operational and (most of all) effective, but it’s fine… the rafale, according to the Indian own tests is a world beater (or if you prefer: one of the two best aircraft in its category on earth) but they don’t need it…
you either have some serious problems with that little thingy called “logic” or are deliberately posting nonsense
My logic is simple and straight … Better a plane which I own then the imaginary one. Options I have already listed, rest do the calculation yourself.
Who said it is The best in world, it is what could fulfill our requirements and hopefully affordable. We are not a oil rich country, where buy things to show off.
rkumarThe fine was for supplying defective parts, this is a different issue than the failing to deliver because not ordered or paid for I bought up.
India needs something Badly, MRCA has been pushed back and now the Indian airforce is desperate for new airframes, to run a reselection is going to push the IAF over the edge of a cliff in terms of numbers. The delays are to my knowledge just issues regarding workshare and responsibilities ie politics rather than economics or technical.
Fine was for used parts, defective tools and wrong drawings.
There will be no reselection as far I can guess, rest is all speculation.
rkumarIts my understanding that the problem has been Dassault not wanting to be held (financially) responsible for problems / delays arising from the Indian government selected subcontractor – not I feel an unreasonable position.
I remember a huge noise between India and BAE because BAE had failed to ship parts for the Hawks, It transpired BAE wouldn’t ship them because the Indian department responsible hadn’t paid.
Probably a bureaucratic error rather than anything else.Rafale will be a fine aircraft for India, Dassault is offering a lot of tech transfer, transfer India badly needs in order to boost indigenous development.
Regarding BAE, if they were innocent then why they agreed to pay fine as mentioned in the contract. We have also these against Russia also, it is anothe matter if we invoke those or not for good reasons.
I don’t think India need anything badly, there are enough options around. Otherwise, we could have signed on the dotted lines. With this I rest my case for now.
rkumarLCA mk1 seems to not cut it, and the mk2 is still some time into the future.
Perhaps there is a reason why Saab has not yet given up on India…?
mk1 is good enough for western (Long term) and eastern border (short term). mk2 as well as rafale both are still some time into the future.
Forget about saab.
rkumar— ot Start —
We are looking forward to generous Dassault and French govt to get free planes. May be they could introduce those imagnary fighter to their air force first then giving it to India.
— ot End —
If there is no problem with marketing why they are having hard time to sell Gold plated fighter plane as evalutions has shown it is very capable in fact suits best to Indian requirements. I am not saying LCA == Rafale, but mix of LCA and Super 30 can do the job.
It is not just buying planes, as mentioned in RFP. Something, you can learn faster if experts show you how do it for first timers. This time ToT was not give us screw drivers and let us tight the screws. It becomes clear in last couple of years that French are shying away from sharing technology or forming JV with India. That is why, this time GoI is very careful before signing anything. Plus it is clear that Indian economy is slowing down.
I don’t think, India wants any of offensive US items, too many restrictions. French wine is sweet and trusted but costs a leg and arm. So we have to live without it.
rkumar>>
There will be many asking, do we still want it? That’s Indians decision so France/Dassault can’t really do anything about it, but you still will need a plane IMO.
The same way, seller can only decide, does he want to sell?What it offer which Super 30 or FGFA, do not offer? An existing capacity, robust and tech India does have yet.
And Rafale is not going to give any tech, even if they will give it will be in 2025 by then it will be out dated.Will Rafale survive or can it keep production lines open without any order? Yes
Alone or even as a French, I don’t think so. Might be as part of EUWho will pay for keeping the production lines open? France
but for how long?How much price will go up, if lets say contract is signed in 2014 or 2015? Inflation + cost of maintenaing the plane on the top and contract rolling i guess
+ price for keeping the production lines open if it is thereWill India pay jacked up price as economy is slowing down? Does India want the plane ?
India require A plane (e.g. LCA or super 30), not The plane (Rafale). I guess this is the whole problem with Rafale marketing and Dassault management, they have to understand there is alternative to everything in this world.
rkumarYeah, but in here theres a rumour about acquiring new fighter jets
Very good decision with JF-17, a step in right direction. Congrats and wishing SLAF all the best.
rkumarRafale can be optimistic but in my opinion India window is closing pretty fast … approximately 3 months and back counting started yesterday.
If it d0 not happen in next 3 months, I am pretty sure Rafale will not deliever any plane to India before or later 2018.
WHY …..
There will be many asking, do we still want it?
What it offer which Super 30 or FGFA, do not offer?
Will Rafale survive or can it keep production lines open without any order?
Who will pay for keeping the production lines open?
How much price will go up, if lets say contract is signed in 2014 or 2015?
Will India pay jacked up price as economy is slowing down?
Even if everything turns out positive, I don’t think India can afford more then 126 planes at this point of time. To me even that is tooo high, may be cut it to half with repeat order option of another half at later point of time.
rkumar@Teer
Have you written some books or research papers on any of the topics? If yes, is it possible to get link(s) of those? If no, it will be wastage of sea of knowledge by not publishing. It will educate and give some food for thought to many souls like me.
shat shat naman
rkumarIndia’s Defense Procurement Process is a mess and she needs to get it resolved before they try to purchase anything else…………just one fiasco after another!
In this case, Rafale is equally responsible. We needed this fighter, yesterday and most probably it will be a unfornate deal miss for India and French.
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