rkumarJust simple questions
when price already contained “Rafale-with-deep-ToT ” then why people here say no country will sell their deep technology know-how?
Why Dassault is having second thoughts about “Rafale-with-deep-ToT “?
PS:
It is an official rest time for at least next 6 months in India. Depend up on the elections results, it might be longer. So we can do all sort of gossip but nothing worth while to discuss on it. So I am really not interested in doing any discussion on this topic. Beating the bush will not take us any where :sleeping:
rkumarA trick question: What was the most decisive weapon of the Second World War? If your answer, as expected, is the atom bomb, you are wrong. It was the B-29 Superfortress bomber that delivered it. Without the plane, the A-Bomb would have been only a novelty. The flip side of this question is: What was the most egregious policy failure of Imperial Japan (besides the surprise raid on Pearl Harbour)? It was the delay in developing its Nakajima G10N Fugaku strategic bomber with the range to hit American island bases in the western Pacific and the US west coast early enough in the war to make some difference. Often, the means of delivery are as important as what’s delivered.
These historical thoughts were prompted by the statement of the new Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Arup Saha, who talked of his service achieving a “strategic” profile in terms of its ability to pull “expeditionary” missions. While the growing numbers in the inventory of C-17 and C-130J transport planes, and of aerial tankers able to extend the range of combat aircraft, make expeditionary actions easier to mount, such tasks in the past (Operation Cactus in the Maldives, Operation Pawan in Sri Lanka) were adequately managed with the old An-32s. The Saha statement revealed an eagerness to sidestep the traditional criterion — a fleet of bombers capable of long range attack — that distinguishes a strategic air force from a theatre-oriented one, such as the IAF.
How and why did the IAF, despite a palpable need, not become strategic? The fault lies in the natural shrivelling of missions beginning in the 1950s that accompanied the dimming of the strategic vision and the narrowing of the military focus, laughably, to Pakistan as main threat, and the quality of leaders helming the air force. The 1947 era of service brass, mostly Group Captain-Air Commodore rank officers fast-forwarded to the top, having loyally served the Raj and imbibed British ways of thinking, configured the service in the manner their old bosses had planned. It resulted in the IAF emerging as a creditable tactical force.
Short-legged fighter aircraft with a leavening of fighter-bombers became its calling card with the UK-built Lysanders, Tempests, and Spitfires of the 1940s replaced by the French Dassault Ouragans and Mystere-IVs, and the Hawker-Siddeley Hunters which, in turn, were succeeded by the Russian Mig-21s, MiG-23s, MiG-27s, MiG-29s, and the Su-30MKIs. The odd Western import during this latter phase — the Jaguar and Mirage 2000, were also only short to medium range aircraft. The only dedicated bomber the IAF ever acquired was the medium-range Canberra in the Sixties. But highlighting its limited operational mindset was the air force’s choice of the Folland Gnat, a local area air defence aircraft, for licence-production in the country.
It was different early on. When Jawaharlal Nehru’s government first approached the United States for arms aid in 1948, it was the war-tested B-25 Mitchell bomber which topped the procurement list. During the Second World War the Walchandnagar aircraft company (precursor to the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd), among other planes, built the Avro Lancaster bombers in Bangalore. Most of these aircraft were shipped back to Britain. But a significant number, which could have constituted an embryonic bomber component of the IAF, was deemed “surplus to the need” and deliberately destroyed by the departing British at the Maintenance Command in Kanpur by hoisting these aircraft, one by one, up by their tails to considerable height and dropping them nose down on the hard ground.
The IAF brass at the time — Subroto Mukherjee, M.M. Engineer, Arjan Singh, et al — did not protest against this dastardly deed by the British, apprise Nehru and the Indian government of the strategic cost of the loss of long range air power, and otherwise failed to prevent these wanton acts of sabotage. True to form, after the 1962 Himalayan military fiasco, the IAF sought not bombers able to reach distant Chinese targets as deterrent but the US F-104 for air defence, before settling on the MiG-21.
What showcased the IAF’s apparent institutional reluctance against transforming itself into a strategic force, however, was the decision by the Air Chief Marshal P.C. Lal-led regime to reject in mid-1971 the Soviet offer of the Tu-22 Backfire strategic bomber. The reasons trotted out verged on the farcical.
As Wing Commander (later Air Marshal) C. V. Gole, member of the Air Marshal Sheodeo Singh Mission to Moscow and test pilot, who flew the Tu-22 informed me, he was appalled by the fact that he had to be winched up into the cockpit, and that the plane would have to takeoff from as far east as Bareilly to reach cruising altitude over Pakistan! (This and other episodes are detailed in my book ‘Nuclear Weapons and Indian Security’.) Evidently China didn’t figure in the threat perceptions of the Air Headquarters at the time, nor has it done so since then.
IAF’s doggedly defensive-tactical thinking married to theatre-level capabilities have ensured its minimal usefulness in crises and conflicts.
Forty years on, while China is bolstering its already strong strategic bomber fleet (of Xian H-6K aircraft) by buying off the production line of the most advanced Backfire, the Tu-22 M3, and prioritising the indigenous development of the four-engined, wing-shaped, H-18 strategic stealth bomber, IAF hopes its Su-30s assisted by aerial tankers will be a credible deterrent and counter against the Chinese bomber armada.
It will be prudent for the IAF, even at this late stage, to constitute a Bomber Command and cadre, lease ten or so Tu-160 Blackjacks from Moscow and, rather than the fifth-generation fighter, invest the Rs 35,000 crores in a programme jointly to design and produce with Russia the successor aircraft to the Blackjack — the PAK DA, which is expected to fly by 2025. I have long advocated acquisition of a bomber because, compared to strike fighters and ballistic and cruise missiles it has far more strategic utility, including in nuclear signalling, crisis stability, and escalation control. It is a conclusion also reached by a recent RAND report extolling the virtues of a new “penetrative bomber”.
rkumarThx
rkumarThanks for the reply … any note on the bomb type(s) used in such operations?
rkumarIt seems Pakistan’s F-16 are used now and then for bombing missions … wonder how much life is remained after such regular use, any information on it, is highly appreciated.
Jets bombard North Waziristan hideouts; 35 militants killed
Official sources told Dawn.com that militant hideouts in Dattakhel, Shawan and Mir Ali were targeted.
According to security sources, scores of others were also injured in the airstrikes.
The first strike was launched on the hideout of Abu Sattar, killing him, followed by strikes on Uzbek, Turkmen and Tajik hideouts. The latter strike killed a Tajik commander.
Meanwhile, the fifth strike was launched on a TTP hideout, killing 15 militants whereas jets also pounded TTP commander Abdur Razzak’s hideout. In total, 35 suspected militants were killed.
A security official in Miramshah, the main town of North Waziristan, told AFP that jet fighters began pounding targets around 12:30 am, with the attack continuing for more than an hour.
rkumarAt the end all these L1 and LCC etc are for peace time to justify buy something. As soon as shooting starts, everything is obsolete. IAF know what they need and MoD/FM know what we can afford.
After certain threshold during peace time, it does not matter what IAF want.
After certain threshold during war time, it does not matter what MoD/FM can afford.
And thank God, it is peace time for India (unless something is going on behind scenes).
rkumarWell done, you failed to get the idea, but nevermind. It’s not my job to point out the obvious or provide the differences between meanings to people that are a little too dense to comprehend, it was a simple explanation in comparing, I could have used other examples of the necessities and indulgencies, just so it happens it happened to be one two Indian chaps didn’t like. Oh and… I couldn’t give two Monkeys about India’s Space Programme, but lets face it, I’m more than happy to put people before something that has already been discovered decades ago. At least there’s a bit of pride there. Much more civilised.
It a really a little too dense to comprehend to many chaps on here, that what benefit space programs is giving us.
e.g. one of the many benefits of space program …
A powerful cyclone is headed for India’s south-eastern coast with winds up to 120mph (200kmph) and heavy rain, the meteorological department has said.
Thousands of people were evacuated from coastal areas in advance of the storm and relief workers have been deployed.
Cyclone Lehar is expected to trigger storm surges of up to 3m (9ft), with Andhra Pradesh’s coast to be worst hit.
At least 27 people died when a stronger cyclone, Phailin, hit India’s eastern coast last month.
The meteorological department has classed Cyclone Lehar as “severe” and said it would hit mainly hit the coastal regions of Andhra Pradesh and Orissa states.
Nine coastal districts of Andhra Pradesh are likely to be the worst affected by the storm, reports say.
Andhra Pradesh relief commissioner Partha Sarathi told the BBC that 150,000 people have been evacuated from 140 coastal villages in east and west Godavari districts.
Cyclone Phailin:
Officials from Odisha’s state government said that around 12 million people may be affected. As part of the preparations, 600 buildings were identified as cyclone shelters and people were evacuated from areas near the coast, including Ganjam, Puri, Khordha and Jagatsinghapur districts in Odisha.[clarification needed][3] The cyclone prompted India’s biggest evacuation in 23 years with more than 550,000 people moved up from the coastline in Odisha and Andhra Pradesh to safer places
*Sarcasm!*
It would be for a greater cause if 20-30,000 more mud and poverty ridden, living in slums people were killed. The world would be more civilised. Of course some high pride and civilised people would have warn us about it decades ago. *Sarcasm!*
rkumarVerbal statements affect the outcome of any deal, common sense, think about it. If you’re getting tired of “stupid posts” then maybe you should be quoting your fellow countryman because he’s obviously lacking something. Also, if you’d taken the time to actually read what was posted you’d see that both side’s have made mistakes. There’s no one-sided ways about it.
Deals are signed base on written documents which form the basis. If Dassault or anyone thinks otherway, they are wasting theirs and ours time. Happy to read that you accept problem on both sides and can see slight changing attitude. I can’t stop anyone, expressing their views.
It was an attempt to point out necessities and indulgences, nothing to do with whom has what nor whom receives how much aid. Get the idea?… Obviously not. But hey, feel free to explore the unknowns of space while India’s large poverty stricken areas makes the rest of the civilised world’s poverty look like they’re seriously well off, and some. So, you know… Improve the poor sod’s slums or explore the Moon, you’re right, you don’t have to explain anything to others. Necessities and indulgences & all that…
lol … keep these double standards of civilised world with yourself. You can’t bear that a so called third world is having a successful space program while you don’t have. It is called inferiority complex, get used to it.
I can do only healthy discussion, I don’t have the time luxury to educate people.
rkumarDon’t feel sorry for yourself or for India, because I certainly don’t have any sympathy for the country.
No one requires or asked for your sympathy.
One remembers just before the L1 bidder was announced for the MMRCA, a Dassault Official stated to India that; ‘Select Rafale as L1 now, and we’ll negotiate the terms afterwards.’ (words to that affect). Indian officials accepted, Dassault/France and every other contender knew India’s demands… So whom is to blame for that now that the discussions are seeming to be hitting numerous obstacles?… Dassault made a bold move with that shot, and credits due where its due, it paid off… Maybe India should have looked ahead more, they certainly jumped the gun that time.
Verbal statements have no values, what matters is on the signed paper. Getting tired of stupid posts, where people keep finding faults in one party and giving undue benefit to other.
India, with it’s own space programme, still receives aid annually from the UK, that is an indulgence not a necessity.
What is your point by brining in this non-sense? Does it add any value to the topic? Aid, UK, Space program!!! For us space program is a necessity point. We don’t have to explain the benefits to others.
The Rafale on the other hand, as a whole and what potential it brings to India, not just the aircraft but to India’s industry, is quite the opposite. Look at the bigger picture, there are reasons why India want such a huge amounts of an industry boost.
It will bring benefit to both countries. With the money French can improve their industry by investing it new product.
rkumarFuture Indian long-range strike options are intriguing. I do not think PAK DA is a realistic option, but a JV for a platform in the class of the proposed T-60 (i.e. Tu-22M3 replacement) for fielding around 2030…
T-60 can be discussed but our eyes will be on PAK DA. And I am confident it will be available if not then we will do it hard way.
rkumarWe will see … if it is an export or JV or something else?
Who would have guessed that Russia will lease multiple N-subs to India?
rkumarIt would be really hilarious if India will be stupid enough to abandon FGFA in favor of Rafale which is unfortunately completely obsolete relatively small underpowered medium fighter with mid 80’s tech compared to the Pakfa.
BTW … I really like such comments and try to extract best information out of these. So please keep posting. Thx
rkumar— OT —
At the end it could be neither … as Rafale deal was partially to help India set up LCA production line (which is all most there, of course hiccups will be sorted in next 2-3 yrs). We have lost hope of any useful ToT or know how from Dassault or Russia for PAK-FA.
So it could be that India might skip PAK-FA and Rafale all together and directly move to PAK DA (Bomber) and AMCA (Fighter). In the mean while keep fighters in air with upgrades e.g. Super Su-30 MKI, Mig-29, Mirage, Jaguar. Slowly keep retiring older Mig-21 and 27 with new Su-30 Super MKI, LCA Mk1 and MK2.
But it is too early …
— OT —
rkumarPossible deal only in 2015, people should forget about direct sale or leasing etc etc. Rules are clear for minimum 126 planes, if figures goes down then this deal will be scrapped (Point).
I find many people prejudice towards GoI. Let me make some comments …
What will happen if GoI pays for ToT but gets non? It is an experience from past in relation to different deals. While cost is jacked up because of sharing the know how but when it come to sharing either it is partial or wrong blue prints or wrong tooling. How do we find it out what is right or wrong? We do not find it out until we fit together all pieces and it is already late in the program. So lengthy and costly delays …
Coming to HAL, they can make mistakes in reading blue prints and manufacturing tools or following process etc. That is where consultancy for ToT comes into play. Dassault has the knowledge and must advise HAL to fix those issues early. So that final product can deliver on time with quality to the customer (IAF).
GoI or MoD has no interest in invoking penalty of 500 million $ after investing 15b $ plus cost of other resources into program. But at the same time we will not allow people leave the room after getting paid without doing any productive and quality work.
rkumarIt is one man standing against corrupt system and import lobby having personal interests.
But sometimes he goes too far while chasing such elements. Personally, with all his shortcomings I like him as Def. Min.
Day dreaming : I wish BJP keeps him as DM.
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