HurrifanWell hurrifan you state: ‘Free speech is fine but not when it is abused to offend others’ Well to be honest its a tad more complex then that, free speech will by default offend others, the offended person just has to ‘man-up’ and take it, argue against it or whatever, everyday i hear things that i personally find offensive (not exaggerating either!) but i have to accept that those people have that viewpoint that i do not and i just have to accept it but i can voice my own counter opinion also. Now the problem comes when ‘free speech’ incites violence or hatred toward others then the line – at least in modern societies has been crossed. I exercise my right of freedom of speech everyday and so be it if it offends people it really is tough. Think about this for a moment, imagine if you can that freedom of speech was not allowed – how would issues be discussed if people wern’t allowed to voice thier opinions and speak there minds?
I think you have made my point for me though i would disagree that different opinion always cause offence…we might disagree about who the best football team or F1 driver is but we dont cause offence. It is where such offence is caused with deliberate intention that i have a problem..fair enough if it was unintentional and then withdrawn asap but otherwise unacceptable.
As to the cartoon publications, well i personally look upon them as a test, not of dutch free speech laws but a test of the tolerance of a certain faith, however i don’t have much hope and i expect many of that certain faith will get all stabby about it. The Dutch people will not be forced to change there laws, there free speech standards will remain and they will not allow themselves to be threatened by zealots who get all stabby and violent, Good on them i say!Edit: you mention Christians threats as if there somehow just as bad, well the threats are equally as bad, the main difference is that in general (there are exceptions) Christians do not use thier faith as an excuse to maim,stab,kill,behead,blow up etc etc whenever something they disagree with is printed in a paper or shown on t.v. Yes i stress again you will see exceptions and there are some real bad apples but in general when was the last time you saw christians holding up placards reading ‘behead those who say christianity is violent’ or ‘slaughter those who mock christ’ – not to often have i seen that but ive seen a hell of alot of that from another certain faith and it simply isn’t acceptable in todays modern world. Oh and lolz at norman d lands.
Bosnia & Northern Ireland are two fairly horrendous examples and you could cite examples such as the neo Nazi bombings in Italy in the 80’s & GAL’s actions in Spain which could be seen as such as well.
The mass killings in Bosnia are well known & i could list the poppy day bombing of Enniskillen, The Bombings of Monaghan & Dundalk,The murders of the Shankill Butchers & hundreds of others. And if you had been at an Orange parade in the 70’s & 80’s you would have seen a fair bit of hatred spouted for another christian faith
But agreed you dont these days see as much coverage of Christian nutcases as you do of Muslim extremists but the point has to be made that these are , as with their christian counterparts, a few extremists who are quite capable of inciting the young or uneducated rentacrowd also available to their extreme right brethren.
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HurrifanIt’s not UK and Sharia, but did anybody notice that last week the Prime Minister of Turkey, Mr Recep Erdogan, held a big speech in Cologne saying that Turks who integrate into German society are violating their human nature, and is demanding a parallel schooling system for Turks in Germany?
integration is the only hope…there are serious problems brewing in Germany if it doesnt work.
HurrifanIt’s not UK and Sharia, but did anybody notice that last week the Prime Minister of Turkey, Mr Recep Erdogan, held a big speech in Cologne saying that Turks who integrate into German society are violating their human nature, and is demanding a parallel schooling system for Turks in Germany?
integration is the only hope…there are serious problems brewing in Germany if it doesnt work.
HurrifanYou could have just admitted that the US is a far more tolerant society than large tracts of Islamic society rather than resorting to the above.
Yes it is tolerent, and in general much more so than SOME Islamic societies, but not always so…try asking some Mexicans, American Muslims or even some African Americans about their experiences. And it isnt a new thing ..as the Irish & Catholics found out for many years!
You can not have free speech without offending others! The very principle of democracy and free speech is ‘tough luck’. Without it neither would work. It is laughable that you suggest one can have free speech without offending anybody.
Well actually it is possable ! It happens ! its known as diplomacy! a balance of what you want and what the other person wants…..much better than “tough luck” ..if this had been tried more often we wouldnt be in the US inspired mess that we are !
‘I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.’
The rest of us dont have a death wish 😀 …and thats a joke…this is a fine sentiment but often missued by some!!!
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HurrifanYou could have just admitted that the US is a far more tolerant society than large tracts of Islamic society rather than resorting to the above.
Yes it is tolerent, and in general much more so than SOME Islamic societies, but not always so…try asking some Mexicans, American Muslims or even some African Americans about their experiences. And it isnt a new thing ..as the Irish & Catholics found out for many years!
You can not have free speech without offending others! The very principle of democracy and free speech is ‘tough luck’. Without it neither would work. It is laughable that you suggest one can have free speech without offending anybody.
Well actually it is possable ! It happens ! its known as diplomacy! a balance of what you want and what the other person wants…..much better than “tough luck” ..if this had been tried more often we wouldnt be in the US inspired mess that we are !
‘I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.’
The rest of us dont have a death wish 😀 …and thats a joke…this is a fine sentiment but often missued by some!!!
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HurrifanA great and good man .
RIP
HurrifanA great and good man .
RIP
HurrifanThe U.S. in their righteous might should have invaded Australia over this. Operation: Foster’s Freedom.
Never happen…there is no oil to exploit and they have Bud after all !
HurrifanThe U.S. in their righteous might should have invaded Australia over this. Operation: Foster’s Freedom.
Never happen…there is no oil to exploit and they have Bud after all !
HurrifanWill apologizing for something that happened in the past stop the petrol sniffing and alcoholism or get the ******s off welfare ..certainly not ..i think more effort and money should be spent on reforming the present generation instead of worrying about the indiscretions of past Governments..i wonder how long it’ll be before the compensation claims start pouring in?
More generisations, in the UK this could almost be seen as tantimount to incitement to racial hatred!
Did it ever occur to you that maybe what these unfortunates that you refer to have gone through & continue to go through might have caused them to fall from your kind of grace? Count yourself lucky that you werent born coloured!
HurrifanWill apologizing for something that happened in the past stop the petrol sniffing and alcoholism or get the ******s off welfare ..certainly not ..i think more effort and money should be spent on reforming the present generation instead of worrying about the indiscretions of past Governments..i wonder how long it’ll be before the compensation claims start pouring in?
More generisations, in the UK this could almost be seen as tantimount to incitement to racial hatred!
Did it ever occur to you that maybe what these unfortunates that you refer to have gone through & continue to go through might have caused them to fall from your kind of grace? Count yourself lucky that you werent born coloured!
HurrifanAbsolutely not.
We should concentrate efforts on sorting out the problems that are relevant now, apologising for 10 generations back does no good at all.Half the world starves while the other half throws away enough food to feed it. Whether it’s pure waste from over-buying, or the horrific policy of throwing (eg Apples) away at the picking site because they are not 2.5″ diameter and a perfect colour match to a card that some shiney-**** in an office has decided it’s the colour the shopper wants.
That’s something realistic to feel guilty about don’t you think?
Ahh so due to the time it took for the Australian Government to acknowledge the disgrace of this policy an apology is wrong ?If that is the case then the Japanese shouldnt apologise for all they got up to during WW2 is that so? because if it is you are way off the beam old boy!!!
What about those still alive and still suffering as a result of this policy? And exactly what does an apology cost? Compensation to those who were effected? dont you trust the Australian judical system to prevent any miscarraige of justice? Given that it took so long for this apology to be finally dragged out you might be right but i would think it would be those who were taken from their families who should be concerned not those who are concerned about admitting the shame of it all !
With regards to your point re the wastage of foods and the starving of the world you are spot on, it is something for everyone to be ashamed of. but what is the relevence of it here? One could say that China should be ashamed of its “one child ” policy but it isnt relevent to what we are talking about here.
HurrifanAbsolutely not.
We should concentrate efforts on sorting out the problems that are relevant now, apologising for 10 generations back does no good at all.Half the world starves while the other half throws away enough food to feed it. Whether it’s pure waste from over-buying, or the horrific policy of throwing (eg Apples) away at the picking site because they are not 2.5″ diameter and a perfect colour match to a card that some shiney-**** in an office has decided it’s the colour the shopper wants.
That’s something realistic to feel guilty about don’t you think?
Ahh so due to the time it took for the Australian Government to acknowledge the disgrace of this policy an apology is wrong ?If that is the case then the Japanese shouldnt apologise for all they got up to during WW2 is that so? because if it is you are way off the beam old boy!!!
What about those still alive and still suffering as a result of this policy? And exactly what does an apology cost? Compensation to those who were effected? dont you trust the Australian judical system to prevent any miscarraige of justice? Given that it took so long for this apology to be finally dragged out you might be right but i would think it would be those who were taken from their families who should be concerned not those who are concerned about admitting the shame of it all !
With regards to your point re the wastage of foods and the starving of the world you are spot on, it is something for everyone to be ashamed of. but what is the relevence of it here? One could say that China should be ashamed of its “one child ” policy but it isnt relevent to what we are talking about here.
HurrifanThe government of the 1800’s does not belong to anybody alive to day. People of the 21st century have no responsibility for acts that they did not commit. The Romans used to watch people fight to the death (amongst some other even more horrendous acts) for pleasure, to their society it was acceptable, to ours it is not. However we have never done such a thing so why should we apologise for it?
You seem to be suggesting that every human being alive today is responsible for the actions of every other human being from every other combination of time and space. Quite simply this is absurd.
No i didnt but your stablemate did ! Really My lord i am disappointed but not surprized. :rolleyes: It was he after all who mentioned Britian & the slave trade .I merely suggested that the standards that might have been acceptable back then were not acceptable today.
Do try reading the posts properly ,get your facts right ,Larry old son ,& address your comments to the right person.:rolleyes:
HurrifanThe government of the 1800’s does not belong to anybody alive to day. People of the 21st century have no responsibility for acts that they did not commit. The Romans used to watch people fight to the death (amongst some other even more horrendous acts) for pleasure, to their society it was acceptable, to ours it is not. However we have never done such a thing so why should we apologise for it?
You seem to be suggesting that every human being alive today is responsible for the actions of every other human being from every other combination of time and space. Quite simply this is absurd.
No i didnt but your stablemate did ! Really My lord i am disappointed but not surprized. :rolleyes: It was he after all who mentioned Britian & the slave trade .I merely suggested that the standards that might have been acceptable back then were not acceptable today.
Do try reading the posts properly ,get your facts right ,Larry old son ,& address your comments to the right person.:rolleyes:
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