originally posted by SOC

“Incomplete or possibly purposely biased reporting. They fail to note if the overall suicide rates dropped, only citing that the suicide rates with guns dropped.”

but surely you would agree that where a gun is available say against a knife…someone who is suicidal will take the option of a ” quick” death to a potentially lenghty painfull one?

“As for Vietnam, where is your complaint against France for cutting out in the first place?

unbelievable!!!!

FRANCE GOT OUT EARLY……..shouldnt you have stayed away???? what right had you to impose your way of life on those people ???? and before you ask yes i have been there and yes they are damned happy these days!!!any way sure according to you Yanks the french dont count for much anyway!!!! ask rumsfeld!!!!”

Er, excuse me. Do some homework please.

France had Vietnam for a long time, first the South then the whole lot. They weren’t, however, the first of the foreign invaders – that goes WAY back. Anyways, the Japs took it over and had it during WW2. Then the Brits, who subsequently handed it back to the French who shortly thereafter got their arses kicked by the Viet Minh who ten years later gave a kicking to the Yanks.

Yep, America should get out of Iraq, Afghanistan and anywhere else they’re imposing themselves on. And if they can’t then we should at least. They should stop their military support of Isreal too. israel should accept that it is an arab nation (not as in the Palestinian question, deeper down) and stop causing the tension that sets the others off. America should remove it’s nose from the area and leave them to get on with living how THEY want to live, according to THEIR culture. Leave Syria alone, leave Iran alone. None of America’s damned business. War on terrorism? ******* hypocrites – who bankrolled the IRA against their ‘special friends’ for all those years? 9/11 only happened because America constantly poked its snout in to the affairs of others and bullied them. Was it really such a surprise to discover that not everyone loves what it stands for? ****, even the French hate you – they blew up a McDonalds in Rennes a few years back such is their loathing.

And while you pull out, can you please **** off out of the UK too? Thanks.

okay………should have been clearer ..i meant early as in they didnt stick it out untill the 70’s…

To be fair the american Government never supported the IRA .American citizens certainly did but maybe not to the extent that is beleived.

The use of “evil” is to mock emasculated, whiney leftists…I’ve spent my adult life as an armorer, making sure the US has the most awesome, deadly and reliable weaponry available. I have nothing but respect for the guys and gals who serve in American and allied militaries. They are much more competent and motivated than the rest of the population.

ahhh…the truth will out!!!!

awesome, deadly, reliable? prob so..but accurate??? lot of friendly fire incidents in gulf 1 & 2…at times it was safer being a foe rather than a friend…take it from one who knows!!!!

and who are these allied militaries then? morally allied?

Isreal?…..100k unexploded cluster bomb bomblets in Lebanon…surely not deliberate?

[QUOTE=SOC]Pardon the late reply, I had the day off and decided to go see Jason Statham’s new movie. It’s awesome.

“Actually it smells of less than honest business practices that came back and bit them in the rear. They got the contract because they underbid the other competitors by a LOT. I’ll see if I can find the figures.”

Agreed !!! and I would be interested in seeing those figures!!! but still ,WHY did they underbid unless there was substanial profits in the offing?

“Fine, then how about this: the LOGCAP deal predates the Bush Administration period. It was in effect in 1999, that’s why KBR got a lot of the support deals in Kosovo.”

surely if it was turning into a loss making operation they would have a pull out clause…..like you said ..it stinks!!!

“Ah, but this time the terrorists are in direct opposition to America’s pet project, Israel!”

Sheer hypocracy then?

“To be fair, the mujihideen were fighting against Soviet INVADERS, not fighting to take over a Soviet territory.”

and now they would argue that they are fighting for world freedom from Western influence…or what they laughingly call world freedom

“In Vietnam? To halt the spread of Communism. South Vietnam wanted to stay independant of the Communist North as well, it’s not like we went in there uninvited.”

maybe so…but was it a just cause given the sort of corruption that was in place within both local and national government?

“Actually I was referring to the former Yugoslavia.”

either way most europeans would gladly say goodbye to America’s influence and sort things out themselves…backyard or not!!!

“Like I said, if we had an idea of the concept of border control, and picked REAL allies in the region, I bet someplace called, what was the name…Waziristan, wouldn’t be in the news at all.”

Border control???? not possable!!!! The british tried in both Afganistan and more recently in N.Ireland….didnt work in either place…

And allies who are there for the chance of a dollar?? no use to no one!!!

“True, Socialism and even Communism on the surface don’t seem like bad ideas. Unfortunately they are easy to exploit by those in charge. Personally I don’t buy into either system.”

Being a capitalist neither do I…but there are some aspects of socialism that are after all just developemts of our ideas of natural justice or right and wrong!

“Appeasement also gave Hitler a bigger head and further compounded the problem. The real issue behind Hitler’s ability to get away with any of that in the first place is that the Versailles treaty provided for a lot of punishment but no verification.”

Germany, despite what i heard on an American sat channel today, is a relatively big country so it would have bben hard top verify arms levels anyway and lets not forget that Stalin provided secret training bases for the Nazi’s as well…Even in this day and age it is after all poss to hide stuff even from the all seeing spy sats…or at least so GW claimed pre gulf war 2 !!!

“I can’t disagree with that logic, although if I remember correctly Woodrow Wilson was vehemently against seriously punishing Germany regardless.”

Think Tutonic martial pride would have demanded revenge anyway…even without a certain Electric shock treated monster.

“The way I read that article, the terms weren’t hidden at all. People are just irritated at the specific 3% that America chose, as it was allowed to do under the agreement.”

I was not referring to written terms and conditions…more the ones implicite in any agreement…Do as we say and we do !!!!

Target shooting is a great way to develop focus, concentration and discipline. Stance, grip, sight alignment, fine motor control, breathing, pulse, reading wind and understanding temperature effects all have to be mastered to get a sub-1cm group at 100m. The feedback is instantaneous as it appears on the target and is indesputable. Master the inputs and the shot group is tiny, goof up and the shot group is spoiled. This type of discipline is rare in today’s short-attention-span world. I’m sure some GD posters would benefit from the discipline of target shooting.

As for the cutie in the picture, the smile says it all. Job well done by daughter and father.

Outstanding kit with eye and ear protection, shooting mat and custom AR-15 (free-floated light weight barrel, adjustable stock, custom charging handle and likely a match grade trigger).

You are joking …right???

no one could seriously think that a child using what is essentially a replica military assault rifle even for something as innocent as target shooting is a good idea?? could they???? The physoclogical effects alone will be huge..

and this from someone domiciled in the USA?? good old gun culture and god bless the American way of life? NO THANKS !!!!

even more examples of why the rest of us cannot understand the mind set of some Americans and want nothing to do with such thinking…

i totally concur. just look what that evalness has done to this young human. i will never sleep again. never.

oooooooo look at the little hearts…..

Well to me its bloody sad…….

You’re the one having problems understanding the facts being presented right in front of you.

oh yes you did…oh no i didnt..oh yes you did..oh no….

good answer!!!!

Halliburton’s subsidiary KBR is paid by the US Army, and they net no more than 3% of the contract amount. How are they hiding profits when they are paid a set amount for their work. And once again, you are completely failing to understand (or are you doing it on purpose?) that the KBR LOGCAP contract was awarded well in advance of 9/11. That deal essentially put them on retainer to the US Army. That’s why they got involved with the Iraqi deals, because those contracts were awarded under the LOGCAP contract already in place.

wel if you tell me that they havent any sort of clause to cover unforseen extra costs….

i will have to take your word for it…but it smakes of gross corporate bungling if they didnt!!! and your point about 9/11 doesnt really hold water..my point was that GW was going to hit Iraq first chance he got….and his VP would have known this!!!!!!!

Personally, I think they went into Iraq because it was believed that it would be a quick and easy win and keep public support for the war effort high.

agreed..but surely the potential for explotation and providing a favoured few companies with massive contracts to rebuild came into t…never mind the chance to get their hands on all those lovely oil contracts…and ensure the safety of its supply!!!

The US government refuses to deal with Hamas members in power as they are still affiliated with a terrorist organization. Personally, I think it’s perfectly fine for the Palestinians to vote for whomever they choose, and it is sort of poetic justice that they voted for Hamas members.

never stopped you in the past…..dealing with terrorists directly even…

Afganistan springs to mind again!!!…anti soviet forces…ahh but then they were freedom fighters…back then!!!! bet the Soviets didnt call them that though!!!

Are you kidding me? The exact same groups might not be in place but there would most certainly be militant groups fighting against Israel, there were all along once the nation was established by the US and the UK.

militant groups or freedom fighters….

how do you tell the difference….anyway as i said earlier…IF the US hadnt backed Isreal to the hilt…Isreal might have had to find a wy to deal with these people BEFORE they became militant…

What part of “we were there to assist and defend an ally against an agressor” are you having trouble understanding? What is wrong with that? Are all international alliances to be ignored? Or only those that mean America gets involved? And of course the present Vietnam probably wouldn’t be pleased we got involved. Why? Because North Vietnam, the agressor we were fighting, is who “won” and took control of the entire country!

and again i have to ask…whats america’s motovation…..

So now you WANT us more involved in the world…or is it only to clean up your backyard?

I presume you mean Northern Ireland?

well actually you arnt involved hardly at all at the moment..Bush doesnt give a damn…no oil you see!!!!.and it might have been better if you hadnt in teh past …bit hypocritical dont you think …talking to someone elses terrorists??

Since when is the fact that Bin Laden was in Afghanistan under dispute? He might not be there now, but that’s due to the fact that America has no idea what “border control” means, and that we’re asinine when it comes to picking “allies” in the region.

..and did anyone honestly think he would sit in his cave waiting for you to come and get him…

he is prob a damn site closer than any of us know…so once again we agree…damn this is getting to be a habit..watch out… 😮

You claim that your concern is with the government…yet you make comments about people shooting each other in schools, people eating McDonalds, and always make sure you use the term “America” rather than “the Bush Administration” or “the US Government”. If you’re offended I apologize, but based on your commentary that is most certainly the impression that I got, and as such my comments, in my opinion, were warranted.

if this is an apology ..accepted!
Maybe i should have made it even more clear that its Bush and previous prseidensts along with their admins that i have the prob with…

take it from me my only feeling’s for the American people are sadness and sympathy…god help them with such Presidents and governments over the last 30+ years!

Now who’s avoiding the question? And do note that I provided you with far more than just a CIA statement to that effect…

now answered..

Working conditions in England gave us Communism. English imperialism gave us the Israel issue and the India-Pakistan issue. British appeasement gave us, in part, WWII. French desire for vengeance at Versailles gave us, in part, WWII. The aftermath of WWII and Communism gave us the Cold War. There’s a few good examples for you.

sorry pinko commie comments on the way….

Socialism ( a mellow form of Communism) would not be a bad thing once like any political beleif it isnt hijacked by thise who would use it for their own ends..after all Poodle Blair claims to be a socialist!!!

English ?…British old son …british Imperialism has a lot to answer for…think i have said this again and again…

British apeasement gave the Armed forces some chance to prepare…mind you prepartion was something that should have been there in the first place…but then the US got caught out as well…despite all the warnings..

If America had suffered the number of War dead that the Fench had in WW1 ..maybe they would have looked for compensation to levels as high….

Did you forget about the part where Iran harbors and supports terrorism? If you ask me they would have been a far more logical choice after Afghanistan than Iraq, but I’ve already given you my theory as to why Iraq was chosen.

but you have to ask yourself what drove them into the arms of the extremists….

An american supported undemocratic Monarcy…a poor and oppressed people…and then look what they ended up with…

Did you miss the bit where I explained that part? They were sold legally to individuals who in turn sold them illegally to the kids in question. The existance of the weapons wasn’t the problem, it was that people broke the law and facilitated another crime. Take those sellers away, and you have guns in a store that those kids wouldn’t have gotten ahold of.

ok…WE have no gun culture here despite 25+ years of conflict and murder…

if the mind setis there that guns are normal day to day things..you wll always have the sort of mindless murders that are such a part of american life..

That’s just rich. Was FEMA headed by an idiot appointed by Bush? Yup. Were most of the problems the fault of the governor of LA and Ray Nagin, NO’s mayor? Yup. If you want to get into that one on a point-by-point basis we most certainly can, but not until you decide to reply to the facts presented about the CIA and Bin Laden.

ever heard of a governments duty to its people……

you cant turn around and say it had nothing to do with the federal government./Bush’s ADmin…but i have made my thoughts on this clear on a reply to DJ cross..

Since when is a sovereign nation not allowed to enact it’s own trading practices? They could always not deal with the US.

i have no problem with trade…

as long as its not acheived with bullying or intimidation…or with hiiden terns and conditions…america’s view of what constitutes Democracy…

As far as I’m concerned, the news media is useful for providing coverage of breaking news and not much else (personally, if I’m watching something news-related, it’s probably ESPN anyway). It’s up to the viewer to make up their own mind and research issues of concern to them without relying on being spoon-fed by the mass media. I rarely watch the news at home anymore because none of the networks are interested in giving you facts without some sort of spin, and that includes Fox.

good for you!!!! and i mean that sincerly!!!

Do you get all of your information from the propagandist Michael Moore?

oh come on…..

he is only interested in his own image….he has some valid points but its hard to take him seriously….try Joseph Stiglitz for a fair and balanced view of the effects of US polocies….

I have no idea?

just wondered…its a popular legand over here!!!

prob true as well!!!! Doubt if George SNR wanted to let him loose too early… 😀

ORIGINALLY POSTED BY SOC;

“You clearly are ignorant of the fact that there were TWO mujihideen factions in Afghanistan: local Afghanis, and imported Arab militias. Bin Laden was associated with the latter, the CIA with the former. But lets do some further examining.

First off, let’s ask the man in question, Bin Laden. He hates the US, you two should get along famously. He was interviewed in 1993 by Robert Fisk, who asked him directly about US assistance during the 80’s. Bin Laden’s response? “Personally, neither I nor any of my brothers saw evidence of American help”. Fisk asked him again in 1996. Bin Laden’s answer? “We were never at any time friends of the Americans. We knew that the Americans support Jews in Palestine and that they are our enemies.”

So SUDDENLY you think its ok to take the word of one of the world’s most ruthless terrorists???

mind you i doubt if he would be prepared to admit that he ever received aid from the “Great Satan ” now would he? wouldnt go down too well with his extremist backers would it?

“Let’s move on to Ayman Al-Zawahiri, another top Al Qaeda operative. He wrote a dissertation called “Knights Under the Prophet’s Banner” in 2001. He stated: “While the United States backed Pakistan and the mujihideen factions with money and equipment, the young Arab mujihideen’s relationship with the United States was totally different. Indeed the presence of those young Arab Afghans in Afghanistan and their increasing numbers represented a failure of US policy and new proof of the famous US stupidity. The financing of the activities of the Arab mujihideen came from aid sent to Afghanistan by popular organizations.”

as above! also…..

a web site for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan#Afghan_Resistance

and in particular the last paragraph..

“The U.S. late-Cold War policy of funding Islamist rebel groups came under further scrutiny in the wake of the September 11, 2001 attacks. The mujahideen of Afghanistan were the direct ancestors of the Taliban and the Al Qaida group which carried out the September 11 attacks and sparked the ongoing War on Terrorism”

“Peter Bergen, a CNN producer, in “Holy War”: “While the charges that the CIA was responsible for the rise of the Afghan Arabs might make good copy, it doesn’t make good history…The Afghan Arabs functioned independently and had their own sources of funding.”

and the author of several very authoritive books io bin laden…

fair point!!! but i still find the other sources hard to disbeleive….

The CIA: “For the record, you should know that the CIA never employed, paid, or maintained any relationship whatsoever with Bin Laden.”

Furthermore, there was even an agreement between the USA and Saudi Aabia during Reagan’s tenure. We’d supply money to the Afghanis, and the Saudis would support the Arabs.

All of them agree: no CIA support to Bin Laden. But I suppose you think you’re smarter than everyone involved?

ahh well that makes it ok then doesnt it? no one in the American government had anything to with Osama or his crew or for that matter ANY terrorist organisation…….emmmm…

read this when you have a mo or two…..

http://www.flcv.com/911sum.html

let me see….motovation, witnessed to be in the area, look like Americans…must be quilty….well it would be enough to land an Arab in Quantanamo( forgive the spelling!)

but sure these are prob pinko commie isreal haters…just like all us europeans!!! :dev2: