ORIGINALLY POSTED BY SOC;

“You clearly are ignorant of the fact that there were TWO mujihideen factions in Afghanistan: local Afghanis, and imported Arab militias. Bin Laden was associated with the latter, the CIA with the former. But lets do some further examining.

First off, let’s ask the man in question, Bin Laden. He hates the US, you two should get along famously. He was interviewed in 1993 by Robert Fisk, who asked him directly about US assistance during the 80’s. Bin Laden’s response? “Personally, neither I nor any of my brothers saw evidence of American help”. Fisk asked him again in 1996. Bin Laden’s answer? “We were never at any time friends of the Americans. We knew that the Americans support Jews in Palestine and that they are our enemies.”

So SUDDENLY you think its ok to take the word of one of the world’s most ruthless terrorists???

mind you i doubt if he would be prepared to admit that he ever received aid from the “Great Satan ” now would he? wouldnt go down too well with his extremist backers would it?

“Let’s move on to Ayman Al-Zawahiri, another top Al Qaeda operative. He wrote a dissertation called “Knights Under the Prophet’s Banner” in 2001. He stated: “While the United States backed Pakistan and the mujihideen factions with money and equipment, the young Arab mujihideen’s relationship with the United States was totally different. Indeed the presence of those young Arab Afghans in Afghanistan and their increasing numbers represented a failure of US policy and new proof of the famous US stupidity. The financing of the activities of the Arab mujihideen came from aid sent to Afghanistan by popular organizations.”

as above! also…..

a web site for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan#Afghan_Resistance

and in particular the last paragraph..

“The U.S. late-Cold War policy of funding Islamist rebel groups came under further scrutiny in the wake of the September 11, 2001 attacks. The mujahideen of Afghanistan were the direct ancestors of the Taliban and the Al Qaida group which carried out the September 11 attacks and sparked the ongoing War on Terrorism”

“Peter Bergen, a CNN producer, in “Holy War”: “While the charges that the CIA was responsible for the rise of the Afghan Arabs might make good copy, it doesn’t make good history…The Afghan Arabs functioned independently and had their own sources of funding.”

and the author of several very authoritive books io bin laden…

fair point!!! but i still find the other sources hard to disbeleive….

The CIA: “For the record, you should know that the CIA never employed, paid, or maintained any relationship whatsoever with Bin Laden.”

Furthermore, there was even an agreement between the USA and Saudi Aabia during Reagan’s tenure. We’d supply money to the Afghanis, and the Saudis would support the Arabs.

All of them agree: no CIA support to Bin Laden. But I suppose you think you’re smarter than everyone involved?

ahh well that makes it ok then doesnt it? no one in the American government had anything to with Osama or his crew or for that matter ANY terrorist organisation…….emmmm…

read this when you have a mo or two…..

http://www.flcv.com/911sum.html

let me see….motovation, witnessed to be in the area, look like Americans…must be quilty….well it would be enough to land an Arab in Quantanamo( forgive the spelling!)

but sure these are prob pinko commie isreal haters…just like all us europeans!!! :dev2:

ohhh by the way Lads & Lassies;;;;

some interesting insights into the evils of this gun culture that some think is such a great and proper thing;

http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/detail/High_gun_suicide_rate_linked_to_easy_access.html?siteSect=105&sid=7016781&cKey=1156920612000

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226493644/103-1124901-9866223?v=glance&n=283155

http://news.ufl.edu/2003/07/24/murder/

http://www.gca.org.za/facts/pamphlets/youth.htm

and it goes on and on and on…….

If there is a demand, a black market will make the commodity available. Witness lorries full of methamphetamine, marijuana, heroin and cocaine get smuggled into the US.

and if there wasnt a gun culture in the US ?

with soo many guns and a cultural belief in the right to bear arms at all times what do you expect? The rule of law must be nearly impossable ….

Aren’t Makarov pistols smuggled in from Bulgaria and Romania the hot item on the streets in the Isles? I’ve read that some of the shootouts rival those by the MS-13 gangs over here.

Isles? i only live on one…..

and no there have been no “shootouts ” here…murders yes…but no battles!!!

dont beleive everything you see on FOX old son!!!! :dev2:

What would we do without the misinformation spread by CNN and the BBC?

i suppose we should rely on the likes of Fox or the Isreali media ?????

no thanks…they might not be perfect but just because they dont tell YOU the news you eant to hear doesnt mean its not the truth…Personally i watch our national TV channel RTE who arnt afraid of anyone !!!! Carole Coleman former RTE correspondant in Washington…try a google search..see Bush squirm before a ” mere ” girl !!! THATS JOURNALISM..REAL JOURNALISM !!!!!

FMEA is not nor was it ever intended to be a first responder to emergencies. The first responder role is the sole responsibility of local government. FEMA has a tiny staff and huge checkbook. It’s purpose is to write checks to replenish the first responders’ war chests and allow local governments to issue contracts to restore critical services. The MSM intentionally misrepresented the role of FEMA as a way to damage Bush and the Republicans. FEMA was criticized in 1995 for its response after hurricane Andrew and has been criticized after every hurricane, forest fire and flood since. The response to Katrina was no different because a tiny staff with huge checkbook is not a first responder.

with that kind of budget this was the best they could do????

give me a break!!!! if it was a wealthy white area ???? what do you think would have happened…FEMA would have been in there well in advance making sure things were in order….mass evacuation where need be…and to ‘ell with local officials ..efficient or not….and I doubt if Bush would have flown over and away!!!!

Place the blame squarely on the shoulders of local elected officials who run their Parishes like corrupt 3rd world countries. I’ve been to NO lots of times and love the food, but I surely would not want to live there.

its known as social resposablity…..its a government duty….

not just local government ….FEDERAL RESPONSABILITY…. but then in America who cares certainly not Bush and co!!

AND NO DJ WRONG AGAIN!!!!

i am one of those who whilst taking in some of what Mr Moore says find him to be too interested in self publicity for the good of the message he tries to get across.
I prefer to READ and WATCH as much and as many sources as i can,..you should try it sometime!!!

Only in Michael Moore’s make believe world.

I purchased a nice Springfield Armory XD45 Tactical in 45ACP three weeks ago.

First, I had to fill out BATFE Form 4473, which is a comprehensive questionaire that asks for full name, full address, place of birth, height, weight, birth date, social security number, race, state of residence, citizenship, 12 questions about criminal status, drivers license number (photo verified to be me) and signature. The form has to be filled out for each firearm purchase.

Second, I had to show my Handgun Safety Certificate, that proves I passed a comprehensive 30 question test covering firearms operation, safe handling, safe storage, safe transport, and knowledge of other laws concerning firearm ownership. The certificate costs $30 and must be renewed every 5 years.

Third, I had to fill out a second form Dealer Record of Sale (an abbreviated version of 4473) to be used for a police background check for criminal status, wants and warrants. This form also included the make, model and serial of the handgun, right thumbprint and 2 forms of government-issued ID that show my current address. This DROS is filled out for each purchase

Fourth, I had to prove that I had an Underwriter Laboratory approved gun safe. (Or purchase a State approved gun lock). This form is filled out for each purchase.

Fifth, I had to pass a safe handling demonstration that included inspection to assure the handgun was unloaded, load one dummy round in the magazine, chamber the dummy round, press check to show chambered round, activate/deactivate the handgun’s safeties, eject the dummy round and verify the handgun is safe. This form is also filled out for each purchase and must be administered by a State-trained person.

Sixth, the dealer had to complete his checklist to document compliance with BATFE dealer requirements.This form is filled out for each purchase.

Then, I had to pony up $609 for the handgun. This was the fastest part of the transaction process

Next came the manditory 10 day wait before taking possession of the handgun. Upon, return to the dealer’s shop, he had to re-check IDs. I had to go through the questionaires a second time and verify nothing had changed in 10 days. Then the time and date of pickup was noted on the forms.

Finally, I had to have a locking case to transport the unloaded handgun home.

Failure to complete any of those steps is a felony at the Federal or State level.

As you can surmise, Michael Moore is talking out his ass when he speaks of “free”, “easy to get” and “children can get them” . Anyone who believes his stuff is gullible or a fool.

dont have time to deal with this properly now…too late and the joys of going to work beckon…..BUT

what about walking down to the corner of a certain street ( theres one on most cities and big towns )and buying a small automatic…usually for less than US$ 75….might not take down a bear but it could give your average human a bad start to the day…

guns are too readily available in america either legally or not….

and before you ask no i didnt!!! we arnt all terrosits over here either…just like the Lebanese and the Palestinians!!!

AND WELCOME DJ WONDERED WHEN YOU WOULD APPEAR!!!! :dev2:

You’re missing MY point. Those contracts are stemming from the LOGCAP deal signed pre-9/11 which essentially put KBR on retainer to the US Army. There was no concern when the contract was enforced and KBR was called upon during Kosovo…I wonder why?

missed the point again havent you!!!!

And boy arnt halliburton coining it in as a result….and dont try to tell me about no profit…..ever hear about Emron? your regulators arnt great when it comes to checking P & L a.cs are they ? :p

but joking aside….every dog in the street knew GW had to get back in to Iraq to save Daddies pride ( Daddy having made such a total feck up of things post the 91 war )…so do you really think ole VP cheney didnt think it would be a good idea to get his ole buddies in on the trick….get a grip will ya!!!

And if Hezbollah and Hamas weren’t around the situation over there would be a lot differrent, wouldn’t it? But it’s easier just to jump on the bandwagon and blame America for everything.

..got a bit of a guilt complex have we…or is it persecution complex?

what happened to Democracy then? the right of people to vote for who they like? hamas in palestine?? or is americas view of democracy that its fine as long as the ” right” people get elected but otherwise… bomb em to ‘ell!!!

the thing is would either of these organisations be there if the US hadnt made such a total hames of world politics for the last 30 + years…

So we’re to ignore other nations then and be completely isolationist? They sought an alliance with the USA and we acted to defend an ally against an aggressor. Problem? Or is such action frowned upon in your world?

and again and again…you ignore the point’s put to you…..

what right had you to determine peoples lives?? simply to ensure your influence in that sphere of the world? i think yu would find it hard to find anyone in modern day Vietnam that would thank you for your interference..or for all the toxic crap you left behind you….remember/ agent orange? another of those things you chose to ignore…

No involvement in Rwanda? That was a decision made by Bill Clinton. Go ask him why. No involvement in Kosovo? Since when? Everybody left today or something?

MEANINGFULL??? MEANINGFULL???

and no where near the levels of involvement you have put into the Americanisation of other more profitable places in the world….

Not when you only hold the US accountable and not any other nation.

sorry old son …didnt relise you had the awfull infliction…..SRD..selective reading deficiency

didnt i say that the UK should be held responsible for the mess they have caused? in several different postings? how often do you want me to
say it?? to give a basic example…we have had some serious scandals here involving Sexual abuse by catholic priests….covered up by the hierarchy….THEY SHOULD BE FORCED TO PAY EVERY CENT OF COMPENSATION TO THOSE WHO HAVE SUFFERED…NOT US POOR BLOODY TAX PAYERS… the same holds true for profit/power crazy governments of every hue and belief!!!

Nobody ever said they had to be complicit. The premise behind the war was that we’d strike the organizations conducting terrorist activities and the nations that harbored them. The Taliban and Afghanistan are clearly the latter.

Ok so……

..you went after a nest where the bird had flown… and was the bird there in the first place? a bit like interment in northern Ireland in the 70’s…you have provided various extremist terror groups with the best recruitment drive they could have hoped for with your various “expeditions”…and the killing and abuse continues….

You clearly are ignorant of the fact that there were TWO mujihideen factions in Afghanistan: local Afghanis, and imported Arab militias. Bin Laden was associated with the latter, the CIA with the former. But lets do some further examining.

First off, let’s ask the man in question, Bin Laden. He hates the US, you two should get along famously. He was interviewed in 1993 by Robert Fisk, who asked him directly about US assistance during the 80’s. Bin Laden’s response? “Personally, neither I nor any of my brothers saw evidence of American help”. Fisk asked him again in 1996. Bin Laden’s answer? “We were never at any time friends of the Americans. We knew that the Americans support Jews in Palestine and that they are our enemies.”

Let’s move on to Ayman Al-Zawahiri, another top Al Qaeda operative. He wrote a dissertation called “Knights Under the Prophet’s Banner” in 2001. He stated: “While the United States backed Pakistan and the mujihideen factions with money and equipment, the young Arab mujihideen’s relationship with the United States was totally different. Indeed the presence of those young Arab Afghans in Afghanistan and their increasing numbers represented a failure of US policy and new proof of the famous US stupidity. The financing of the activities of the Arab mujihideen came from aid sent to Afghanistan by popular organizations.”

Peter Bergen, a CNN producer, in “Holy War”: “While the charges that the CIA was responsible for the rise of the Afghan Arabs might make good copy, it doesn’t make good history…The Afghan Arabs functioned independently and had their own sources of funding.”

The CIA: “For the record, you should know that the CIA never employed, paid, or maintained any relationship whatsoever with Bin Laden.”

Furthermore, there was even an agreement between the USA and Saudi Aabia during Reagan’s tenure. We’d supply money to the Afghanis, and the Saudis would support the Arabs.

All of them agree: no CIA support to Bin Laden. But I suppose you think you’re smarter than everyone involved?

ok mr moderator……

WITHDRAW YOUR COMMENT ABOUT MY HATING THE US…MY CONCERN IS WITH THE GOVERMENT AND ITS FOREIGN POLICY OVER THE LAST 40+YEARS…. will address the preposterous comments about taking the CIA’s word on anything once this is done.

I see. So England isn’t supposed to clean up it’s actions, but the USA is. That certainly sounds fair.

here we go again..wont repeat myself…just read the previous postings…

Not denying anything. Merely pointing out that, once again, there were a lot more nations that were complicit, and that you only want to hold the horrible USA accountable.

and who has made such a mess of things on such a scale as America?

you are after all the most powerful country in the world…whatever about the most moralistic….

and sure isnt america the bright shining example of how democracy is meant to work???

Might it be because they’re responsible for their children? You’re also ignoring that the Columbine shooters bought the guns illegally from individuals who either owned them or bought them for the kids. They didn’t get them from gun stores or NRA rallies.

and where did the guns come from…..

you know as well as i do that guns are not regulated as much as they should be….where you have a gun culture you will have mistakes…you will have people who flout the law….look at Europe..look at half a dozen countries where guns are the exception not the rule…how many massacres do they have???

No, that’s not what I mean. I could care less if China or Cuba is Communist, or if Iran wants to nuke Israel.

you mightn’t …….

but your government seems to be looking for any excuse to go after Iran….more WMD anyone?

Ah, so everything is the government’s fault. Someone sells a weapon to a kid illegally, it’s the government’s fault. A person enters McDonalds of his or her own free will and starts eating, it’s the government’s fault.

and sure didnt i forget that US governments dont have social responsibility….

ask anyone in New Orleans a year later….

But then America would be sticking its nose in where it doesn’t belong! Make up your mind which way you want it!

…oh dear god…

i will repeat myself once again

“IF America was there for the right reasons they would be welcome to act as the world’s policemen…. “

and some light reading for you with regard to american foreign policy and America’s attitude to the rest of us…. and from one of your own…

http;//http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/stiglitz72

this is but one example …try a google search on Mr.Stiglitz…. but then i suppose he is prob one of these pinko-commie-liberal types?

but before you go … do tell…are you all taking your view of the world from the likes of FOX ? and is it true that GW never left the US before he became President?