Bah, started something maybe but I am about done with it.

Of all of the fan clubs on the internet the Rafale’s supporters are the least reasonable. You don’t see the Eurofighter supporters claiming that it is the best at everything under all circumstances and that it won every technical evaluation it has ever entered… you don’t see the F-15E supporters insisting that it is the best dog fighter ever, etc.

Somehow with the Rafale reality doesn’t apply.

A guy claims, inaccurately, that an aircraft doesn’t have an IRST, you supply them with a source stating it does… and they ignore it. They claim the Rafale never competed in the UAE, you provide them a source… and then they just insist the competition doesn’t count. You provide a source directly from a Rafale pilot… and they complain that his name wasn’t provided. (yet they will of course believe internet rumors about exercise results or the supposed victory of the Rafale in technical evaluations in competitions it lost…)

You state a common knowledge fact about the Indian competition… suddenly it is “sources please.”

Whether the “debate” continued a day or a year nothing would change.

And THIS is one of the worst kind of a message we can find on a forum.

Of all of the fan clubs on the internet the Rafale’s supporters are the least reasonable.

Of course, yes. So, do you believe this claim bring anything to the thread ? What’s your point ? You don’t even grasp the reasons motivating the answers you received.

You don’t see the Eurofighter supporters claiming that it is the best at everything under all circumstances

Quite true, though it nearly happened, with ideas like “it will catch up with R…”

Somehow with the Rafale reality doesn’t apply.

Of yeah, of course. Are you proud ?
You don’t like reality too when it doesn’t fit your opinion, come one !

We all are prone to sources preferences, hidden beliefs, and wrong use of some words.

Example :

Part of the reason is that the UAE considers the Rafale too sluggish when compared to their F-16 Block 60s:

Rafale “sluggish” ? “When compared to F-16b60” ? I think there are a lot of words you could use instead of “sluggish”.

So, Rafale has been called “sluggish”, “underpowered”, “comparable to F-16b60 10 years ago”. And you expect clever answer ?

My point is not only about Rafale heat/smoke but it is underpowerd so it needs that full afterburner for take off & empty low altitude flight performance. it is only enhanced by fast playback of the video.

You’re unable to suppose that max power is interesting for the most dynamic show.
There are many flight demonstration of Rafale on Youtube, so, don’t expect people to believe when you write about fast playback.

Be kind : leave this topic once and for all. Please. I don’t want anything else from you. You bring nothing to the discussion, and I’m pretty sure you’d be better at… something else.

Thanks for the summary TMor. 🙂 Wasn’t ROVER also part of 3.3 or was it inteoduced with 3.2 already? Any idea what else was included in 3.2 vs 3.1 some weapons apart?

You’re welcome.
I have to check about Rover, and maybe someone will help, but AFAIR, Rover doesn’t even equip all the fleet, and may be unrelated to any standards. My information is old, I admit.

Could someone of our French users post a summary of what has been covered by The new magazine wrt the different F-stanards? 🙂

I should write some update on my forum, since there are at least 2 years I didn’t cover. It’s only a matter of will. :rolleyes:

Examples from the last Air Fan :
F3.3 :
-improved L16 for better interoperability and better coordination inside the patrol ;
-improved firing modes for PW III, with adapted symbology in the HUD ;
-various software and MMI updates.

F3.3′ :
-seems motivated by the necessity to avoid a bug with freezing displays ( !!! )

Both required 500hrs flight hours to check them completely.

Other upgrades are mentioned, unrelated to standards. Integration of IT4949 Leaky Green NVG, 6th version of the Reco NG for more reliability of softwares and datalink.

About the C137 experimentation (F3-O4T) :
The radar is seen just like it was totally new, while actually, only the array change. Wider FoV, doubled range in A2A, improved performance in ECCM etc.
In the cockpit, though, it’s the same. Pilots admit they questioned the size of displays because of the very huge amount of data the new radar has to offer, but experimentation proved that Dassault had been visionary enough, after all.
In theory (by contract), the range remains unchanged in A2G and A2S modes, but they still expect it to be better though.
In 6 months of experimentation, the radar suffered no failure.
Progress made on AESA also benefited to PESA (I guess through softwares).
All Rafale under F3.3 or F3.3′ can be equipped with AESA or PESA. Changing the array only last 2 hours, and required neither test nor software change.

About the FSO-IT : cleared for operational service since end of 2012.
The IR channel of former FSO worked well but required a lot of training to allow silent interceptions.
Now, L16, FSO and Mica IR seems to offer interesting possibilities. Interestingly, the pilot interviewed suggest that the IR channel disappeared because they are still exploring those tactics. He remains hopeful that one day, a new IR channel will come. I guess those tactics are too new to have the right lessons necessary to develop such a system correctly.

DDM-NG : experimentation started in April, and will be tricky (testing without actually trying to shoot a Rafale down).

By the way, no Typhoon display at Le Bourget this year. Static only.

What a pity ! It will be the first time my brother come to this airshow. I wanted him to see the best aircraft, including Typhoon and Su-35.
Did they give a reason ? 🙁

In 2006, I was said that they were catching up this 4% overrun, but nothing happened.

As far as I understand it, the industrials did their best, and may not be charged for things which aren’t related to their work. Rafale cost may have increased, but not because of DA, Thales, Snecma, etc (who accepted to pay 20% of the R&D), but due to other factors.

So all fun and games with a bucket load of arrogance thrown in with them right now. Dassault, and every other bidder for that matter, knew India’s requirements regarding local production…

Dassault showed up just how ridiculous their argument on HAL’s ability was, when they actually argued that Reliance Aerospace (without having even set up a single facility, or having worked on a single project before this) would instead be their preferred partner.

You people talk about arrogance and ridiculousness, but EELighting just has the opinion of those who were refused to access this negotiations, having no idea of exactly what was known by the bidders before (and after), and having no idea of the issues.
In fact, whatever they want, HAL isn’t up to the task right now, because they work with different standards.

BlackArcher, what if it was easier starting from scratch instead of “changing” HAL ? In the end, know-hows and technologies will be transferred to India.

It’s interesting how people here are confident in the superiority of their team, and in addition feel the need to spray the idea that the bidder which proposed the best deal is “arrogant” with “ridiculous arguments”. What if yours had been chosen ? Do you think they’d accept anything without guaranties ? Come on. Dassault is negotiating.

http://idrw.org/?p=21806

Dassault CEO : We know HAL has certain capabilities. It’s different from France, the standards are different. It is also not…maybe something that is totally the same—the work done in India cannot be compared with the work done in France. What we are doing now is to understand how the job of manufacturing in France will be implemented in India in HAL. Maybe, there is a matter of time (in moving forward), as far as we are concerned, we have no problem with HAL

They do drop bombs over Mali…