Arg…
PilotTHX you’re too bad… You’re agressive before you know more on the subject. Stay cool. All you do is stupid bashing. Exactely what nobody here should do.

I’m still waiting for someone who could explain me the good points of the Typhoon airframe, as Fonk did for the Rafale.

Though pro-Typhoon come with details from crews or pilots (even without giving a single name !), at least Fonk gave a well explained and own point of view on the subject, rejecting all what is declared by eurofighter (and some article) and which can’t be sustained by anyone here.
What he brings to us isn’t as much from Jane’s data as from what Chris Yeo himself reported after his flight on Rafale in 1999. In addition, he gives comments about aerodynamics wich no-one else here can discuss.
So, each time, people say that he shouldn’t believe Dassault’s propaganda (why do you think Euroghter is not doing the same?), or read Jane’s…
That’s too bad. The debate hasn’t really took place.

What’s funny is the feeling that France is unable to developpe and produce a very very very good aircraft, maybe better than Typhoon… I know it’s very fun thinking that the national aircraft is the best, but it makes the Rafale very hard to be credible, because Eurofighter is sure of developping “the better aircraft ever developped” and so all partners believe it (whatever the uncheckable truth).
I know you may want to reverse my assertion (“What’s funny is the feeling that eurofighter is unable to developpe and produce a very very very good aircraft, maybe better than Rafale… “) 😀 because you think french guys and dassault are just arrogant frogs (will someone explain me why are french named frogs ??? sweet animal is the frog !). But it doesn’t explain me why saying “Rafale is best” is arrogant while i still don’t understand why isn’t yet recognized the expertise of Dassault. This gives me the feeling that due to the superior number of countries implied in your project, Dassault has become ridiculous…

Has I said, none of the pro-Typhoon arguments convinced me definitely (except for the Captor… 🙂 ) since none of them look funded. Journalists talked to me about a Dassault test pilot (at Singapore, see above) without giving his name. All the assertions about Singapore are the same quality : rumors, or interviews of unidentified people. Then, about the site, the datas published, the eurofighter site is the only one to propose (exagerated) data (eurofighter.com compares Typhoon and Rafale lol… + the Joust simulation on eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk…) compared to the Dassault site. All the rest on other sites is often outdated but copied/pasted from elsewhere…

I still don’t know why you consider the Rafale as a 4+ gen aircraft (and the Typh 5+++ or 7 gen) though it has shown better than Typh in Korea (or you might consider that the story according wich Rafale was better than F15 was false), and why the Dutch underrated the Typhoon (using you’re words i guess)… (why the Dutch eval hasn’t been as publishing as the Joust…?)

The truth is hidden in a big and black clud made by propaganda (from both side), it’s sure, but the Rafale has proved several things, and at least, you should never say that Typhoon is better by far in any aspect (i think that Scorpion has a good attitude about the subject).

Excuse me for the confused look of my post.
Cheers

Hum… I’ll speak for Jon Lake about some points…

If a Dassault flight test professional says that Typhoon went out and supercruised in the mid day heat in Singapore, when Rafale waited for the evening cool (and failed, twice) I’d take it more seriously than if some BAE PR hack said it. And I’m more interested in what the SEngO on a squadron says about maintainability and availability than I am in the manufacturer’s breezy assertions.

This looks to be the same story than Jackonicko told us… Quite embarassing for a Rafale fan as me.

When he critisize the FoxThree publication :

Endurance is excellent, even at low-level where we can fly at 450 knots for 1 h 30 min in a clean configuration (page 7)

Comment :

This is a feat of such modest proportion, and of such little tactical application as to leave me quite speechless. I’ll wager that you could do that in a Jaguar! If anything, it just makes me wonder why they don’t give the figure for 480 knots (8 nm/minute)?

Hum…

About the aircraft in Singapore :

“I’ m still wondering why BAe didn’t sent one of the trial aircrafts with some ground stuff to show.”
I’ve never asked the question.

Presumably it had to be a two-seater to be useful, and there aren’t many two-seat DAs/IPAs under BAE’s control. Some may have been on lay-up, others may have been doing core programme work and couldn’t be spared.

The Singaporeans flew DAs when they visited Warton and Getafe, and flew the active cockpit. Perhaps they felt that there was no need for the Singaporeans to fly a DA in Singapore.

But like you, I’m surprised they didn’t send the ISPA or DA4 – both of which could show aspects of Tranche 2.

Perhaps they felt that sending RAF aircraft, so soon after they’d entered service, would be astonishing enough to be impressive. It certainly impressed the pants off me!

Hum…

About MMI etc…

I’ve spoken, in depth, to Typhoon and Rafale service pilots and maintainers, and to TPs and evaluation pilots. I’ve spoken to people who’ve flown both types. I’ve sat in both aircraft, flown one rig, and have witnessed someone flying the other. I have been briefed on HOTAS functionality and display modings.
It’s quite clear to me that in terms of the MMI Rafale is a 4th Generation aircraft, imposing a relatively heavy workload on its pilot, while Typhoon clearly has a fifth generation cockpit, with a superior MMI giving a much more efficient, lower workload environment.

Final :

On RCS and acceleration, I take what BAE, Dassault and Thales tell me with a pinch of salt, but I believe what independent experts (especially those from the USA) tell me. We can argue all day about the magnitude of the difference between the two aircraft’s RCS and acceleration figures, but it’s my understanding that it is fact that Typhoon enjoys some edge in both areas.

Be carefull Fonk… Franck will close this thread too ! 😮

Yeah, i just read the “Eastern Smile” article. Not to bad.
Some facts look strange, but after such a read, i’ve a simple question :

Why didn’t Singapore wait a little for Typhoon if it was the best by far ?… Oh, i’ve something else : the aircraft has reached a speed of mach 1.21 without afterburner. This came as a surprise because the aircraft there was lighter than development one…
But how many times have i red that it could reach mach 1.3 (before Sgpore) ?

I don’t want to be agressive, but Jack, there are some strange things in your article… Why ?

Eurofighter GmbH’s ability to offer AMRAAM and Paveway LGBs -as well as new generation weapons including ASRAAM, Meteor, Storm Shadow and Brimstone – may be of pivotal importance in Singapore, offering the best avalaible air-to-ground and air-to-air weapon options, and providing a real ‘capability edge’ by comparison with the other candidate aircraft.

😮 😮 Explain me this paragraph.
Typhoon / Rafale
AMRAAM / MICA (and cleared)
ASRAAM / MICA // remember : 33miles range, 50g, mach 4 (3 at end)
Paveway / AASM (about to be cleared)
Meteor / Meteor too
St Shad / Scalp (about to be cleared, or already ?)
Brimstone / True, you got this point, but AdA will probably use AASM
as they used 250kg bombs LGB or AS30 for the job.
Alarm-Harm/ AASM

Explain me.

PILOTHGT, why are you dealing of the old Fox3 paper. Dassault has since announced several time their little delay.
This has nothing to do with the performance of the airframe.

Is there someone (but Fonk) to discuss positively the Typhoon airframe ?

TMor,
This aggressive and arrogant troll is not Rene Fonk, any more than I’m Pierre Closterman. Calling him Fonky is a mild wind-up, and it is a good deal less rude and confrontational than the personal attacks he persists in making.

Pfffffffffffff…… Poor Jackonicko. I’m just asking you to write “Fonk”, instead of “Fonky”, as you should write “Clostermann” instead of “Closterman”. You know what I mean ? I guess you’ve understood i’ve never believed that “Fonk” was Rene Fonk…

In any event, there’s no doubt that the European centre of excellence on FBW FCS for highly unstable configurations was founded on the Jaguar ACT and EAP programmes,

Maybe, but the point is that you’ve though the Mirage2000 was a stable configuration. The first article explaining instability to me was written in 79, with for example the Mirage2k and the Mirage III(which was stable). (the M2k using its FBW to control the high(maybe less than JagACT) instability. First fly 1978. Jaguar ACT 1981)

I’m sorry Fonk, i’m on your side,

but actually, i’m not skilled enough in English and due to this, I may not have feeled what Jackonicko wrote as you did.

Familarities in English… I’ve no idea. I prefer keep cool when i write on a fora, whatever the tone of other members. Agressivity is good for soldiers, not for guys on fora, who want to convince (but that’s my opinion). 😉

Tell me; do you consider yourself and I as being totally stupid?

Not at all !!! 😀 😀 😀 (some will consider i’m too proud)

PS : Jackonicko : stop writing “Fonky”. Fonk was one (or the) best French pilot during WW1 (75 victories sure + 127). Just write “Fonk”.

Excuse me Fonk, could you have a look to your private messages ?

To answer to your questions…
I believe that people who are able to make comments about the articles they read should absolutely try to phone editors (who should be careful about what they publish). But there are so much people (like me) who are far from being skilled enough that writers (independant or not) can continue writing want they (or somebody else) want.

To make it shorter, YOU should make what is necessary. At least until some of us learn enough on the subject. 🙂 🙂 🙂

At least, it’s a good point that journalists come on such forum. Exactely because in fact, even if their articles look amazing on a topic, in forums, they are no more able to sustain a discussion on the same topic (because they use biaised arguments, lies, and propaganda). And there is always at least one or two people who can detect them.

Ouch !

I surrender. I can’t defend anymore an aircraft i’m used to critisize. Being French, i’ve always prefered Rafale, and it’s not going to change.

Actually, i’d already seen that most pro-Typhoon considered the Rafale as an upgraded Tornado, but actually, I realize that I’ve no idea of what aircraft are.

I’ve no more arguments. I’ll try to send somebody who could have other arguments, but i’m no more the one who will defend the Typhoon. My only reason to do that was to know what Fonk could tell us.

Cheers 🙂