tiddlesHi Foofoone-I am glad you like Aussie desert, which do you prefer,maybe the Simpson desert or possibly The Great Sandy Desert we have plenty to choose from and most of them are growing by the year.[unfortunately]
tiddlesBig Deal Time
Hi SOC- The question posed was ‘What is the big deal about the Rafale” not the F22.Sure there may be less than even 200 F22s built & yes it maybe a 20yr. old design but it is a major leap forward ,the Rafale has only some minor improvements [Maintenance costs] on older US designs.It is an expensive nothing & I stick by my comment re avionics & radar. The Rbe2 falls perfectly into “It seemed like a good idea at the time”category & has also been described as “dead end ” technology. The prototype was bought from a US company anyhow,they probably could not unload it quick enough.
Granted France has been building good fast jets since the 1950s, we got over a 100 Mirage 111Os in the 1960s & to be fair it was it was a successful project. Unfortunately they threatened to withdraw support for them if we used them to suppot our committment in Vietnam somthing that has never been forgotten. Fortunately no such problem with the Brits & we were able to send a squadron of Canberra bombers which performed very well despite being seen as a bit out of date ,being very accurate [for that time]in the ground support role. Luckily they only operated in the South & did not have any A2A opposition however several were lost to ground fire.
tiddlesHmmm…cough…cough…OK
Hi Full Throttle-I guess I left myself wide open for your final comment. True it is sad but Oz paid off its last AC the HMAS Melbourne in 1982, the Korea & Vietnam veteran HMAS Sydney was paid off some years earlier.The sorry story of the failed replacement for the Melbourne is covered reasonably well in the 8000t Harrier Carrier thread.If it had not been for the Falklands we would have got the then unwanted HMS Invincible.Having dumped on the CdeG it is a paradox that I hope that the already built & working Mistral wins out against the Spanish Navantia design for the contract for 2 LPDs for OZ. the winner to be announced early next year [maybe]. The specs for the OZ LPD are a bit different to the current Mistral & there was talk that provision for operation of the F35B was to be taken into account although there has been no word of including the B model in our F35 purchase to replace the FA18
tiddlesBig Deal Egos.
The original thread said “What is the big deal about the Rafale.”As mentioned by Storsch ,so far less than 300 Rafales likely to be built. The problem is that it is not a “Big Deal” but a very expensive excercise in national ego,lets hope that they never have to go to a serious war with this plane,it is not as well provided for in radar and avionics as the later blocks of so called older US planes & probably never will be . It is now 20 years old itself so is hardly the latest gadget in the toolshed. Built partly to fit on the CdeG [The Fawlty Towers of naval ships] FA18C/Ds could have been purchased in 1998 [Last produced] very cheaply and would have flown the flag OK for a ship that is never likely to see much, if any combat duty. The Uk is lucky that the CVF will never be built.
tiddlesHi Storsch-We nearly got Starfighters down here but got Mirage 3 instead back in the 60s. Anyhow a mix of F15e/f & F16, would have been simpler,cheaper & done a better job than EF2000. As for industrial advantage re EF, a deal with Boeing & Lockheed to offset the deal with manufacture of commercial aircraft parts over a 20 or so year period would have kept things going reasonably well. Anyhow I thought Germany had toyed with the idea of more MIG 29s originally. My impression is that Germany only went into the Eurofighter consortium to show it was a good little “European” & in fact was not happy with maybe upsetting the French by leaving it alone with what ended up as the Rafale but had no realistic other choice
tiddlesHi Schorsch- Maybe you wont have to sell your Grandma for the Eurofighter but how about your Mother in Law.
tiddlesRafale overated??
Hi Schorsch- I have followed the arguments re the A2A performances of Rafale v EF2000 for some years now & enjoyed it.Hence the thought of a “Top Gun” shootout, It might at least show which aircraft was superior in BVR & WVR engagements “At this point of time”. Other factors come into play in Nation v Nation, AEW etc. etc.but a pure plane v plane may answer a few questions, maybe not.
Fully developed, well I supose this point is a bit unreal but I suspect you could guess what I meant . The promoters have promised plenty but we are still waiting,just check out what was promised to South Korea . It has been reported in the media that during the Singapore comp. both Rafale & EF2000 were told “Show us your stuff, stop talking about what might happen” To be fair the comp may have been lost for political reasons The future of EF2000 “Development ” was also bought into question.I have track lost of what point in its much changed “Tranching” journey it is at or likely to ever get.
With regards to workshare, well you have a point, here in Aust. there have been rumblings about how much JSF work we have got,other stakeholders have had the same problems. However the cost of development of Rafale & EF2000 has not been benificial to all but the big Euro countries . I still think the UK would have been better off to go straight to the JSF, the Germans never wanted the EF in the first place & probably think the same thing.
Both planes have cost more than it has been worth to get the point they are at. All they have proven is that big European countries can waste money better than most places.
tiddlesrafale is it special
All these things have been discussed many times over the years,but we are still none the wiser. I wish the EF2000 & rafale would have a “Top Gun ” shootout to settle the A2A argument. Neither plane is really very well developed considering the amount of time they have been around & the future of some of these improvements for both planes under a bit of a cloud. I wish one or both would make an effort to fully develop their aircraft as both are performing well aerodynamically.I sometimes get the impression the Europeans wish they had just signed up for the JSF, it may have been a better idea as their own planes will not be really in any advanced stage of development before the JSF comes on line.If you get the impression I think these planes are a waste of time you are right but they look really cool.
tiddlesCVF Quip
Hi RN Lovers
My quip re the CVF was really an afterthought as I was mainly interested in Shiplovers Bremer Design. However seeing as most of the ships on this thread have never been built or are fantasy designs it seemed apropriate.I hope you all get to see it enter Plymouth harbour as it has certainly been a favorite subject on Forums for years.But again ,from afar it has all the hallmarks of “delayed until etc. etc.”,[Read forever] this happens everywhere & it is going to happen with the CVF I am afraid.
tiddlesHC 600PT
Hi Shiplover
I thought this thread had unfortunately run its race as we had covered a fair bit in the process. Re the HC600PT,on post 48 were the specs. which you posted along with excellent pics., however there is no view of HC600 from above. Do you know if it has a through deck, the specs. state 2 helo take off positions, which would have been 1 aft and 1 forward,but the specs. show op. capacity for 7 VSTOL? The fantasy version is more heavily armed, with harpoon/exocet & sea sparrow & maybe RAM, with a waterline breadth of 59ft. would there be weight capacity for this extra armament topside,in fact all diagrams show a ship with a Garibaldi like topside armament all on 6000 tons.and 127 metres. length plus an overall width of 29.8 metres. Nice pics. and very interesting to study but if ever built I think they would have been top heavy and not very seaworthy. I should add that I have no experience with shipbuilding at all. Finally I will say that the ultimate fantasy ship is the RN CVF, as an outsider [Aust.] the vibes are that they will go the same way as the CVA 01 of the 1960s [I think] in fact I would be prepared to bet money on it & I am not much of a gambler.
tiddlesI too believe that f35B will surface sooner or later & is more likely to be seen flying off a new RAN LPD than the RN [Pigs might fly] CVF
tiddlesHi RonOO I suspect your idea that the smaller Invincible is a Vickers design makes sense, Vickers seem to have been very active with conceptual carrier designs in the late 70s & early 80s which makes it even more probable. It is unfortunate that none got built, bad luck for Oz that our carrier replacement fell through. I do think in hindsight that operating a carrier at that time would have been difficult to handle fiscally especially as the Hornets were being bought at the same time
tiddlesAnother reason that I forgot to mention that makes this design a likely contender is that the Sea dart launcher was not part of the original sale deal & Oz had no plans to replace it with another SAM ,a CIWS was proposed instead. There is no provision for a SAM on this model however there is no provision that I can see for a CIWS either, anyhow it is a good looking ship.
tiddlesHi Shiplover – The Invincible model you posted could have been proposed to Oz after the Falklands War .After that event Oz attempted to revive the sale of the Invincible however Britian advised that the RN was aiming at a 3 Invincible type force & the sale was dead. The British proposal was that the Hermes be either sold or leased to Oz on very favorible terms as a stopgap measure on condition that an Invincible type be built for us in British yards. To ofset this cost the replacement for the LSL Sir Lancelot would be built in OZ,an LSL of that type ,the Tobruk had already been built in OZ, & is still in use. The then Fraser Govt. lost the upcoming election & the incoming Hawke Govt. killed the carrier replacement for good, they did however confirm the purchase of the 76 FA/18s chosen as replacement for the Mirage 111s by the Fraser Govt.
tiddlesHi Shiplover – The thread seems to have changed, so does this model have one prop. or two Seriously I assume it is a British design [Invincible like] which yard put it forward, do you know.
Sign In
