DJ.um, the liberal gov chose the f-35
election
the labour gov re-evaluated and also chose the f-35 and as recently as last week said they are still see it as our best option
but heck what would they know compared to fanboys
Yes what the heck would they know. Just look at Collins fiasco, seems to me our “experts” are only well versed in needlessly spending taxpayer money.
I am not even suggesting that f35 is not as capable or as “wonderful” as LM claim.. I am suggesting that we do not need it. You or anybody else for that matter has yet to put a coherent argument which would demonstrate necessity of F35 and justification of those insane costs.
So I ask again, can you justify procurement of F35 over FA18F-G models with any reasonable argument?
DJ.Do i think Super Bug is the best platform out there.. No No i do not.
It is however the most logical when considering all factors.. cost, commonality trtraining and capability. FA18 F and G models right now, are capable of dealing anything that will fly in the region probably up till 2030 and even beyond.
Based on those factors F35 is the worst option as well, Its just that nobody has guts to launch an investigation into whole dealing, from canceling the original tender to selecting aircraft that would fail to meet more than half of the requirements as set out in original tender.
The whole process is/was a joke. Only thing that could save us is if the price of F35 goes us another 20%-30%… people might start asking questions again.
DJ.Australia should cancel JSF and opt for More FA18E/F and acquire Growlers. Say 50/50 ratio of E/F to G model. Say 40 E/F and 40 Growlers would be enough to see us to 2030 and beyond.
This talk about “PakFa” and “future chinese stealth” is gigantic BS perpetuated by LM crowd and lobby group. Which country in the region purchase Park Fa?? Malasiya and Indonesia have trouble keeping few squadrons of 4th gen fighters in the air. As for Chinese stealth.. that will be atleast 10 years behind Pak Fa.. and if LM fan boys claim Pak Fa is 10 years away from production min.. then hope of chinese 5th gen is beyond 2030.
Regardless is China is unable to retake island of its coast much less defended than Australia, what are their chances of coming half way down the globe? F35 project is a joke, and an example of pointless waste.
DJ.Looks like some Aus papers here jumped the gun. Latest is that there was explosion and then ship sunk… i guess until sailors are debriefed we will not know more.
Quatum…
Yes it would be the biggest act of beligerence since ceasefire .
DJ.Go look at the 7 different ATF proposals. There are MANY ways to skin that cat. Hell, just look at the difference between the YF-22 and YF-23. Same with the previous F/X (F-15) Go look at the entries to that competition. They were VERY different from one another.
And F35 is a copy of Yak design… so bloody what. If someone has done work for you why bother reinwenting the wheel. :rolleyes:
PS: And there is only one way to skin a cat,, with a sharp blade. 😉
DJ.very interesting.. yet are not the Bulgarians nearly similar in ethnicity and language to Serbians? especially more so than the Russians?
anyways I agree with Showtunes, you people don’t realize the mig-29 even if capable, is heavy in maintenance and a non-flying aircraft is more useless than a weaker single engined aircraft that can generate a high sortie rate.
if you guys want to deter Bulgaria and their expansion via proxy with their Macedonian cousins, more single engined fighters that are cheaper to operate, like the Gripen (or the JF-17 and Tejas, which is the poor man 3rd world Gripen) will be very useful. better money can be focused on cas/trainers like Yak-130, and ground units.
Bulgarians are slavs, but not as closely related to Serbs as say Croats. Also we have no reason to deter Bulgaria.. i dont even know how we got them involved into this debate :confused: .
Right now Serbia does not have to rush its decision.. like Ink has explained. Regarding Mig29s , we have managed just fine with them from the last 20+ years… we have the know how, facilites and ability to maintain them. Some people are confusing sorry state of Fulcrums in 29 with Embargo and lack of help for Russia. Not so, they were in sorry state becasue Milosevic regime made sure Army was in sorry state, and Police was well funded. Yes some things have to come from Russia but majority can be done at home, which is pluss. Further more mig35 or 29k are not in the same position as early versions. Lots of engineering went into making newer models easier to live with, and yes two eingined AC is allways bit more dearer to run, but it is not a staggering difference… plus like i said above.. its better to have one squadron of modern jets, then 4-5 of obsolite ones.
DJ.Rogue states
By Neo-con definition , a state is a “rogue” if its not willing to bend over for uncle Sam. So yes.. Venezuela , Lybia, Vietnam might be offered T50
By common sense definition Russians will not deal with true “rogue state” … such as Iran or NK when it comes to top end tech.
Threatened by the United States or its allies[*]
…. and as we know there are not many of those in the world…. 😉
Have the hard currency to splurge on these pricey jets
Where as F35 ,Typhoon and Rafale , are offered free with a happy meal????
Which 4+ jet is not “pricey” ??? I wont even mention 5th Gen… the way things are going here in Australia we will have to sell Tasmania to Chinese to pay for 70 odd F35s…
Problem is, they can only buy a squadron of them, and put their best pilots or honchos in the cockpits.
A squadron or two of 5. Gen jets can go long way in persuading somebody to leave you alone. Like i was debating in another tread, a small airforce is best served with single squad of modern fighters than with 4-5 of older generation. If i was on limited budget id rather have 12 Rafales than 36 Mirage 2000 or 12 Eurofighters than 36 Tornados.. Hence i see no reason why smaller AFs wont go for squadron of T50 instead of 2-3 squadrons of MiG29s or Flankers
DJ.Funny how you talk down unducting such planes. Yet anyoen can see 40-50 Grifo equipped and AIM-9L F-7PGs would be a quntam leap in capability in forSerb AF.
How is 30y old Chinese copy, of 50y old Russian design, with 20y old radar, and firing 32y old AIM 9L … a “quantum” leap over current MiG29 (few as they are) and MiG21 Bis ??? JF17 would hardly be a “quantum leap” over those, let alone AC it replaces.
“Right now anyone could fly over Serbia almost unchallanged.” .
Not quite, but not far from the truth. However F7s would hardly help that situation. Like i have said, if they wanted to go down that path why not upgrade existing MiG21s to Bison??? Get proper BVR capability. Because they are not interested in spending money on obsolite design. Rather stick with what you have until you can procure something worthwile. .
If you do wish Bosnia or Kosovo took these planes, that would gives thme a much better equppied air force,.
Read above.
and I dont see Serbian pilots in Rafales or Typhoons anytime soon….
Neither do I… ever. MiG29/35 on the other hand makes perfect sense. Heck we even have facilities to conduct complete overhaul and maitenece in Serbia.
You also seem to not reading what ive said. Gripen would be perfect for us.. but the problem is US content and weapons… so why would you suggest 30y old AIM9L which made by which country???? :rolleyes:
Only reasonable thing to do with all versions of MiG21/F7s at this point in time, is scrap metal. Cheap models like JF17,LCA, T50 (FA50) with much better preformance and equipment levels nulify only reason that justified those aircraft being kept in existance …. which is cost.
DJ.Like who? I doubt the US gov would be interested in LM participating given the state of the F-35 program (the last thing LM needs is another distraction).
Sferin admiting that F35 program is a disaster…. let me go out and get a camera.
Af for tanker. EADS needs to “get it” and pull out. Even if they offered a “magical” tankers that fly on pixie dust and produced gold dust from its exaust… it would still lose to also non existent boeing tanker.
EU should on the other hand make “measured” response in other ways… like pressuring members to changing requirements right now of F35… like being on time… on budget… ofering whats promised… you know unrealistic stuff… and then cutting order numbers.
DJ.Not odd, many air forces are receiving F-15s, Jaguars etc.These are 70s designs.
They are being replaced by JF-17s. First F-7s then Mirage ROSEs are being phased out. In fact PAF now has 40 surplus A-5s that JF-17 has replaced.
The newer F-7s have plenty of life left. PAF may offer them for sale. The only problem maybe Pakistan is very pro Bosnia-Herogovina.
I hope they end up in Bosnia or Albania… anything being “replaced” by JF17 can be safely assumed to be old, obsolite and useless. Since JF17 is rated at 15-20 Million, and can be equiped with Israely,Russian,Chinese or Western radar avionics might as well go for that.. taking mig21 derivetives even for free would be terrible idea.
We could probably equip j22s with AAMs and have good enough AC for “policing”. I think SrAF is looking for maintaining culture and capability of modern AF, at limited budget… which is why getting limited number of modern units if better way to go, than getting a lot of old and obsolite. 40-50 mig 21 derivatives will cost you over 10 years more than 12 Mig 29/35s yet provide nowhere near same cabability.. even if we were to get them for free.
Maintanence , upgrades, training 40-50 crews and service personel… all costing fortune, yet offering 0 capability.
Might as well get 40-50 spitfires and use that… would make the Arifroce one hell of a tourist attraction.
DJ.In about 1-2 years there will be 100-150 F-7P and soon F-7PG airframes available from PAF.
Advantges include
1) Relativleycheap to make NATO compatable as already have Grifo Radar and AIM-9M
2) Serb pilots know the MIG-21well
3) Ideal for policing role
4) PAF will certainly not want alot of money
Might as well go for JF17 and get new airframe with BVR capability at relatively cheep prices.
Mig21, even the more potent Bisons would be a step backwards, considering we already operate 4th gen fighter. 😮
DJ.They’ll build that many if they can find buyers would be a more accurate headline. Libya and Vietnam aren’t going to buy 300 each, and how many third world air forces can afford large numbers of $100million+ aircraft?
Dont know about 1000 i could see it as being major export success. If your only opponent on international market is fat single engined designed by commetee costly hunk of metal… then many “neutral” forces could see advantages of getting lesser number of PAK FA and getting the edge on any neighbour opperating 4-4’5 gens..
The fact that Russians do not need you to do whole song and dance routine to sell it ti you (just cash) is also an advantage compared to F35, which if you buy you will have to worry about keeping uncle Sam happy.. or the whole thing might shut down and “reformat” entire code at a press of a button somewhere in Washington.
Id like to see Indonesia get few… just so Kopp could have a major freak out. Come to think… RAAF would freak out as well :dev2:
Few other places it would be interesting to see it… for entertainment purposes..
Argentina… if they get economy going .. this time just to see RAF have spaz attack
Greece.. if they get economy fixed… to see Turkish reaction
Taiwan.. what better way to send message “steeling our **** is not ok” 😀 😀 😀 … and since China is now producing its own stuff and pretty much off the customer list for Russians.. cashed up Taiwanese who are on their knees with bums exposed just praying for anybody to sell them something.. would be perfect customer.
Venezuela…
Gadafi-land
Iran….. Israel would spaz out… and to send message that selling that what they did in georgia is not very nice.
Iraq.. once US packs up and ******s off.. providing whole place is not torn appart in civil war
Brasil.. if they get tired of French jackasery.
and so on
DJ.I hope Serbia does not forget recent history and does not buy aircraft from countries who bimbed them in the last decade. Serbia needs a reliable partner and that can only be Russia. So SU-30s seem like a good option.
Sweeden or China 😀
SU30 is a terrible option for a country of such geographic size… they would hardly have space to park them 😀
Like i said, if we could take the politics out.. gripen is a perfect fighter for our needs. Unfortunately we can not take politics out. Hence it has to be Mig29-35 or something from China.
Some seconhand mirage 2000s would be good as well.. while France was part of campaign they were not as “vocal” about it. They also have reputaition for standing up to Washington. Problem is Later model mirages like the ones from bahrain… cost as much as new migs 😮
DJ.When something like a T-50 is used in a “dogfight” something went wrong already. Against a MiG-29OVT non of the stealth fighters has a real chance in a true “dogfight”. 😉
I disagree. T50 and F22 (I am not yet convinced about F35 manuverability) may idealy tasked to take out enemy BVR… but I am convinced both are top dogfihters. Engineers at Sukhoi even sacrificed rear stealth geometry for “super-manouverability” and T50 , just like OVT has thrust vectoring.
Further more with “stealth v stealth” being a distinct possibilty in the future, concept of dogfight is definitely not restricted to history books just yet.
DJ.I’ve been told by Bulgarians that Serbia regularly stabbed them in the back, e.g. 1885 (looking it up, it is a remarkably blatant example of back-stabbing) & the First Balkan War, & that their actions in the Second Balkan War, First World War, etc. were merely attempts to get restitution. I think this shows the futility of using such an argument. I suggest you do not pursue it further.
And I am not at all suprized they have that view, nor do I wish to pursue any historical debate on backstabbing further, though i would argue 1885 was more of a stab in the face rather than backstab :diablo:.
I was only trying to answer question asked about relationship of two, which like everything else in that part of the world,,,, is very complicated.
Regarding Bul AF… I would not consider 16-20 odd Fulcrums (upgraded as they are) and two dozen Fishbeds as significant domination of the Region. Though bar Greece it would be technically strongest AF in region… though some might consider upgraded 48 od Romanian fishbeds as decent match.
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