Considering the Indian funds used there is no reason to think they would not get fully capable unit. I think that Indians them self will opt for some different components such as ECM and Comms be they domestic, western or form israel.

Suggesting that India will get RAM-less , Non Engined watered down version is just silly. Even US is not that restrictive with regards to F35.

Wow… been a member of this forum since 2001 and Ive never seen this much insanity… though it was to be expected. I feel obligated to make few points so excuse the long rant type post…

1. Does PAK FA means EU needs new 5th gen program???

Short: NO!!

Long: Russia is as threatening to EU as much as EU is to Russia .. lets not forget that European Agencies have been pretty much caught in the act supporting misguided Georgian offensive which left west with so much egg on its face.

Russia simply has no Economic or Strategic interests in “reforming USSR by force”… when western tactics of throwing money and inteligence behind favorable presidential candidates works so well. I think pas has thought Ruskies that assimilating unwilling peoples is not to be practiced. Since break up of USSR , Russia has not engaged in such practices. Some will now point to Checenya , usualy those who do not comprehend that about 50% of Chechen population is pro or even ethinc Russian… further more radical Islamic theocracy on its border is not something Russia needs… or even West for that mater, which is why NATO only produced token protests when Russians stomped on Chechens in 2002.

This now brings us to Ukraine .. a common argument by those war mongerers who want to portrait Russia as threat to west. Once again they probably never have been to Ukraine or understand that country. Half of the country is very pro Russian, while as much as 30% are Ethnic Russian… Why would Russia invade its own people when like i said exerting influence on elections works better.. how much money did EU and USA throw on orange revolution and look where it got them.. few year later Moderate is back in power because Ukranians know that both EU and Russia are important to them.

To keep Russia happy all they have to do is:
-Dont join NATO (and since Russia will never invade why do it)
-Dont host American ABM shield (Dhaaa)
-Stop ******** with Gas Lines

To Keep EU happy
-Have free elections (Check)
-Free market (check)
-Stop ********* with Gas lines 😀

Seams to me neither of the above is something to difficult for Ukraine to manage. As I said having lived in Ukraine for a while, people who think that there a possible source of armed conflict there are ignoramuses who have no clue about people there, or do it on purpose to further self serving agenda.. to translate it to first group… Imagine me saying that USA might invade Mexico over illegal immigration and Narcotics trade… well thats about as ridiculus as it sounds when suggesting Russia invading Ukraine.

Finally if Russians want to hurt EU all they have to do is pick a very cold winter and cut the energy supplies. Ofcourse that would mean cutting lucrative source of income and dropping their own standard of living hence why it WILL NOT HAPPEN.

In other words Russian threat is a non starter argument for EU response in starting 5th gen program.

2. Second argument seems to be that PAK FA might outcompete Eurocanards in sales. Again this does not justify or make economicaly viable new 5th gen program.

First of all as mentioned above, most Europeans seem to think that in the world of PAK FA and F22, Typhoon and Rafale are NOT obsolite as some of you think and they may have a point. Typhoon has its consortium to depend upon for guaranteed sales, as for Frogs… well they could be selling F22 they still would not make any sales , it is their unreliable attitude towards customer service and general arrogance… not the product.

Only two examples I could think off where PAK FA might (and its a big might) take away from Eurocanards are:

-Greece – Again having been there for extended period, Greeks have relatively mild attitude towards Russians. Most are very annoyed at west and US in particular over what they see as favoritism of Turkey. They see Turks as huge threat and most believe it will attack again with in a decade. Considering that Turks are level 2 Partner in F35 program Greeks have been looking at Eurocanards to add to their arsenal of Block52 Falcons… and with Turks getting F35 in addition to upgrading all of their F16 to Block50+ … a westernised PAK FA might sound good for Greeks who have in past bought Russian kit (S300)… PAK Fa with European/Israeli AESA, Electronic, ECM ,Coms,Weapons etc. could be seen as giving Turkish fatboy run for its money.

-Brasil- With French being famous as top “negotiators” it would not take much for Brasilians to have enough and tell them where to stick it… question is can Brasil wait 6-10 years before PAK FA is avaliabe for export, assuming it enters production in 2015 one would guess for the first few years production would strugle to keep India and Russia demands.

So there you go, nothing has changed.. If EU saw no reason to answer F22/35 with own VLO aircraft why would PAK FA (which they knew was comming for last 10 years) would?? It makes no sence strategicaly or economicaly.

Finally EU does have a VLO design which COULD make sense Strategicaly and Economicaly, in MBDA MAKO…

When it comes to VLO size matters, an Aircraft that is half a size of the other will have half RCS.. and that is before all Radars redcucing design and tech is figured in.

If MAKO could be develped into something that is smaller than Gripen, and has small internal weapon bay just big enough to fit say 4x MICA or 2xMeteor + 2x IRST-T/ASRAM , with up to 1000Km Range..coupled with AESA and good ECM… you would have the best point deffense fighter in the world. You could keep price down dute to small size and using off the shelf systems, meaning that it would sell like hotcake. I can think of far many countries interested in somethng like that than F22/PAK FA which have been developed for needs of large superpowers.. or F35 which neither cheep or small enough.

Going by the reported shape… it could be something with “Flat”… “Flathead” , “Flatbed”, “Flatter” … :confused:

Like i said in 2007,2008,2009 …. any forecast given by Russian MoD, Sukhoi etc is not worth the paper. We will see it when its ready.. and not one moment earlier.

If i was a betting man, id say 3r quarter of 2010… but that is just my gut

I do not appreciate your trollish behaviour and have reported this post as well! It was your rude and unreasonable comment which has derailed the thread!

Been a member since 2000, first time ive been accused of trolling… well there is a first for everything.
PS: Scroll back and see who wrote first post that had nothing to do with Defense review…… but lets leave it there as franks has suggested.

Also if you want to take on Arthur the MOD … your funeral!

Oh I am familiar with grumpy marchetti hating ogre since 2000.. I don’t think he’ll mind my joke 😉

Guys, get back on topic now.

Copied and understood. Last post from me on this topic. 😎

I agree with Obi on this, I think it will be difficult to find savings in the Welfare and health budgets but the overseas aid budget needs a serious look at!

Frankly I am highly bemused about the amount of aid we give to India when they have a multi billion defence budget for example…

British aid for 2009 to India is less than one billion pounds.. still might sound a lot .. until you examine where it actually goes. 70% of it is actually used to prop up British interests in India… for example companies that trade with UK or ogranisations that are of benefit to UK… it would be like USA saying look at the bilions of “Aid” we give to Saudi Arabia… when in fact it has nothing to do with aid but self serving economic and strategic interests.

Other 30% is actually used for charitable work, like health and enviromental help for locals… on total scale its peanuts… and it only serves to make British feel better for robbing that country blind for hundred years… or have we forgoten where the “crown jewels ” (like star of INDIA) came from and how were they stole.. i mean “acquired” me ol chap ???

In real terms India could give a toss what UK does with its aid.. though such public over-beat up of non issue might cause Indians to pause and rethink some of their procurement decisions in future… like Hawks.. or Typhoon chances in MMRCA….:rolleyes:

Ofcourse you can take number of AC / total cost, as cost per unit that one country is paying. Weapon intergration, infrastructure are all BS terms invented by manifacturers to make numbers look better in ayes of the public…. I mean aren’t those items directly associated with aircraft cost or not??? On top of that even with “infrastructure and weapon integration” cost taken out… numbers still look terrible.

Its decisions like these that make me glad i cheat on my Tax here down under. God bless hobby farming and mutual trusts as well as backward Tax office.

My first thought was “I hope they had a good reason to justify the act”.. No solder would complain if money went towards feeding a child… but then i saw video.. and at risk of sounding like a bigoted *******.. they look like pro. pick pockets from .. say Romania that region… Gypsies to be more precise. The slight of hand girl uses shows she did this before. The very large gold ring on the right hand of man tells me there is probably no starving child..