BuranHere’s the deal, its quite obvious from your posts that you are as nationalist as any Indian out there and will equally do everything to claim no F-16 was shot down etc. That’s fine, that’s your prerogative, but please lay off the patronizing spiel about 4x missiles (when 2 are clearly missing significant portions which would well indicate they are wreckage from an intercept), discount the amount of consistent evidence the Indian side has provided (AWACS footage, R/T calls, AMRAAM wreckage) while the Pakistani side has been making inconsistent remarks from day one and has provided NO evidence to point out that all its F-16s were safe. .
Summarizing the rant.
The evidence alleged by India is so circumstantial and weak that it didn’t warrant a serious response. Pakistan still put forward so much out there because India painted itself in a corner and it was a good opportunity to stick it to India. Had India only said they shot down a PAF jet, they wouldn’t be in this situation today. But they had to be specific enough to say a 2 seater F-16. How their ‘electronic evidence’ picks up one seater or two, we will never know.
Buran‘Not aware’: Pentagon on Pak F-16 count after Feb aerial dogfight with IAF
So no End user management checks on PAF anymore?
3rd March
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i…-idUSKCN1QK0AR
The U.S. Embassy in Islamabad said on Sunday it was looking into reports that Pakistan used F-16 jets to shoot down the Indian pilot, a potential violation of Washington’s military sale agreements that limit how Pakistan can use the planes.
6th March
https://www.thedispatch.in/sab-kucch-wahan-haen-says-official-on-us-probe-on-use-of-f-16-by-pak/
Official sources in Delhi said they are “sure” that Washington was carrying out a thorough investigation into the use of the US-manufactured fighter as well as the missile onboard it in the offensive operation against India.“Sab kucch wahan haen (Everything is with them),” a key government source said here. Things like serial number, the name of the company …..everything is with the US.
First India asked for US to check F-16 usage and inventory and now finding ways to prove that it never happened! Its a routine inspection, will happen like it or not.
Buran‘Not aware’: Pentagon on Pak F-16 count after Feb aerial dogfight with IAF
There was no investigation ‘like that’, just a routine end user management check. Good word play though.
BuranThese are NOT of dubious value, given that the F-16 crash happened on the POK side of the border and not on the Indian side. Eye-witness accounts on BOTH sides of the border stated multiple parachutes were seen coming down, between 2 and 3 is the figure all eye-witnesses reported. Eye-witness accounts on the PoK side talked about multiple pilots being caught by locals and one was beaten up. Not 1 eye-witness account, but multiple. Were they all just fibbing?
The Pakistan side went with that story to claim another IAF jet AND another IAF pilot were in their custody and one was hospitalized. Are you saying that they were just cooking up statements as they saw fit?? the Prime Minister of Pakistan, no less?? India reported one jet lost immediately and claimed one jet shot down as well, immediately. They weren’t trying to win some internet contest. IAF Mirage-2000s had after all just a day ago gone nearly 60-70 kms into Pakistan and dropped their weapons and returned safely, so they had met their original objective.
If you have any historical perspective, you’d know that this is not the first time that Pakistan has claimed things that were consequently proven false. They claimed that the Balakot strike didn’t hit any buildings. They could have easily let local and foreign journalists visit the site and the building and view it from inside. They never allowed that, cordoning off the area from locals and journalists. They claimed no F-16s were involved, which was proven to be false and now they are hinting that F-16s were involved.
Kargil was a case where they claimed for a very long time that no Pakistan Army regulars were involved, despite the Indian side having ample evidence. They refused to even take back the bodies of their dead soldiers and they were buried by the Indian Army with honors.
Having had the wreckage on the POK side means that Pakistan could easily control access to it, just as it was done for Balakot. Locals don’t have access to the site then basically images don’t get out.
And how can one forget about Osama Bin Laden and how long he was living a couple of kms away from what is basically Pakistan Army’s Westpoint Academy? Did they not deny his presence in Pakistan for all those years? Do you seriously believe that the Pakistan Army, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and the Pakistan Govt. had no clue that he was there all those years?? When did they acknowledge his presence? After his capture and killing was over.
I’m sorry but I won’t take what the Pakistan establishment says at face value.
Well this no longer looks like only Pakistani position. For all the laundry list of items you have mentioned, it still doesn’t prove that a F16 was shot down.
If the burden of proof was already not stacked up against India’s position, this latest news of physical verification is a death nail in Indian claims.
India hasn’t done itself any favours by the secrecy they maintained after the incident. Electronic evidence they cant share, voice intercepts they cant share, any video/pictures/HUD camera footage they cant share and pièce de résistance their defence minister knows name of the F16 pilot who died ….. you guessed it, they cant share.
The only evidence we keep on hearing is that some people saw 1 parachute and others saw 2 or 3. And the discrepancy on the number of pilots in the first statement by the Pakistani military. With evidence that flimsy you wont be able to convict someone for a traffic offence let alone crediting someone with shooting down a fighter jet!
BuranNo.19 Sherdils squadron flies ex RJAF F-16s. Not the ones supplied by the US. So will the Pentagon come out and do a count of all F-16s in PAF inventory including those supplied by non US states like Jordan?
You are just clutching straws now, after physical verification India has nothing else left to go on.
As for the Jordanian F16s, here is some information on the monitoring process. So rest assured everything would have been verified, including the number of AMRAAMs left.
C8 – End-Use Monitoring (EUM)
http://www.samm.dsca.mil/chapter/chapter-8#C8.6.
Lara Seligman
Getting a lot of qs on whether the US included the F-16s Pakistan bought from Jordan in its count. The answer is YES: even third-party transfers of US equipment must go through the US government. To clear up the confusion, I’ve updated the story.
https://twitter.com/laraseligman/status/1114183187054366720
As I said before, nothing Indian can now provide will beat a physical count of the F-16s. The purported electronic evidence now might as well be the controller watching a Bollywood dance number on his screen.
BuranThanks for the link Moon light. So the argument now will be between American eyes (Physical count) vs Indian electronic evidence.
But I can bet people are still going to nit pick (Did they count all of them? did they touch them or just see them? were they offered alcohol being the count?) Fun continues!
I hope IAF’s credibility has not been destroyed by the Indian govt for political gains.
BuranThe above article was probably planted by state or defence department before an official statement (not sure if we will get one though). In spite of this, those of us who do not want to believe, will find more holes in this and other news stories. I suppose IAF can release whatever evidence they have to counter this news story, but they will probably wait for an official statement.
That is crux of the matter. India doesn’t have ANYTHING to backup its claims. If they had it would have come out by now.
They have just been called out as liars in plain language, but you still wont find anything coming from their side, except more statement and even more weird theories.
BuranWhat miss? There is no proof shown by the Pakistanis that the targets were missed. On the contrary, the fact that local and international press were NOT allowed to go near the buildings that were hit, speaks volumes for what really happened.
This is an independent analysis by a third party.
As for proof from Pakistan, surely the burden of proof is on India to back up their story, not Pakistan.
BuranInteresting account of why the IAF strike failed.
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/indias-strike-on-balakot-a-very-precise-miss/
Thanks for sharing. Regardless of what side you believe, this is a very well articulated and through out article.
“One potential candidate in this case is the difference between GPS ellipsoidal height and orthometric height based on mean sea level (see here for an explanation). In northeastern Pakistan, the difference is around 33 metres, although in many areas the difference is not precisely mapped so it may be larger or smaller at a point such as Balakot.
One explanation for the miss is that the SPICE 2000 bombs were incorrectly programmed to fly precisely into GPS points that were, say, 33 metres above their intended targets (the buildings on top of the ridge line). They performed as programmed and then continued on their trajectories until they struck the valley beneath.”
Am I correct in assuming that this was the first ever use of Spice 2000 by India, at least in the hilly terrain of Kashmir?
BuranNonsensical claims? Lol. I see. Is that what Pakistani posters are now saying about DG ISPR Gafoor’s claims as well then? he is the military’s spokesman isn’t he? And he was as specific as he could be when he was referring to that pilot as well “Inshallah we shall take good care of him”. Looks like they really did take good care of him. 😀
Doesn’t suit your narrative, hence nonsensical claim. Everything else is true though, right? Oh wait, that same DG ISPR Gafoor now does another volte face and ays that F-16s did participate actually and that it is for the US and Pakistan to sort that out..although last time around, he categorically denied they were a part of the strike.. God knows what he’ll do a flip flop on next.
As for RSS, they may be a right wing organization, but then at least they are not a terrorist organization recognized as such by other nations, training and pushing terrorists into multiple neighbouring nations in the name of jihad. In that respect, no one can match Pakistan, that’s for sure. I don’t know if there is anything non right-wing in Pakistan at all. Ghazwa-e-Hind rubbish. Flying the flag of Pakistan on the Red Fort in New Delhi and what not fantasies.
PM Modi did it because he believed it was important enough for him to talk about it. It was an achievement as far as the scientific community and the political establishment is concerned. he doesn’t owe any explanation to anyone as to what he feels like talking about on national TV.
Anyway, now that I see your posts’ quality deteriorating to the same level of Mags76 or whatever new assumed name Yasser takes on, I will not bother to engage much with you either. I thought you were sensible. I was obviously wrong. I prefer to ignore trolls as much as I can rather than stoop to their level.
I suggest we only open this Mig21 v F16 discussion whenever some additional credible evidence (from either side) is released. Otherwise this discussion is turning into a farce with both sides interpreting each other’s statements (which at times have been laughable) to their own benefit.
Buranhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3boDuZsacU
Defense Minister Nirmala Sitharaman saying the same thing on 12th Mar, she refers to social media but mentions she has information as DM, has not taken back her statements.
Perfect opportunity for Pakistan to refute her allegations with proof and laugh at India’s DM like Indians do at Pakistan’s PM but only after he made an ass of himself.
I think on this particular account India has outdone itself with fantasies of pilots getting killed by villagers, being the son of an air Marshal etc etc. Every claim has been debunked one by one. So cant make an ass out of indian claims any further, even if someone tried.
As for your DM, how can someone refute a claim when it hasnt been made! All she said was that she knows the name but wouldn’t give it out.
Everyone would welcome any further information from India. Ask her to give out the names so even these could be proven false, like the previous ones.
That’s the problem with India, statement after statement but ZERO proof.
Edit:
Actually having seen the video again I take my comment back that she didnt give out the details. She does claim the pilot to be son of the air marshal. Which has been categorically debunked. See links in my last post.
Now Indian govt is relying on random messages on social media, which are coming back to bite them in the ass one after another.
BuranYou see, Arun Jaitley does not have to eat his words based on something quoted in the media.
And I believe that you need to make up your mind about the Indian media. You and your ilk have lampooned the Indian media for being jingoistic, inaccurate, story tellers and for beating the war drums.
So does this particular story meet your high editorial standards?
Now Imran Khan had to eat his words as we know now and that does not require authentication anymore, was too eager to score a hat trick I say ;).
Ofcourse he did. He quoted an unsubstantiated story from the Indian media, which was later refuted by Indian media itself.
As for editorial standards, I wouldn’t believe anything from either side without checking. Anyone with access to Twitter can check out their profiles / pictures. Do your own research as they have provided all the sources.
Fact remains that India hasn’t publicly released a single piece of evidence to backup their claims. It’s just been a litany of statements.
BuranSee my post above. the warhead section is the one in the middle, which is completely missing on the 4th missile. Confirms that it was fired, warhead did blow up and the seeker found somewhere on the ground.
See how clearly intact these missiles that were still on the pylon looked, versus the 4th one, of which just the seeker was found.
And they first claimed to have found 2 of the missiles on the Bison’s wreckage. Now the number multiplied to 4. 😀
As I said in my previous post.
Parts of the 2nd R73 were found burnt in the wreckage. One R73 is there in full and the second can be seen on the outer pylon in the picture below.
Also in the second picture you can see the seeker of the R73 next to the wreckage.
Last I checked Pakistan didnt use R73 or R77. India does.
BuranIndian Union Minister Arun Jaitley has revealed the identity of the dead Pakistani pilot. As specific and official as it can get.
There would not be too many sons of Air Marshals flying F16s in the Pakistani AF. Why not call out this lie and claim equal-equal?
Ya. Poor Arun Jaitley had to eat his word soon afterwards
Why claims about the PAF pilot’s lynching don’t add up
https://www.newslaundry.com/2019/03/05/why-claims-about-the-paf-pilots-lynching-dont-add-up – This is an Indian source, just in case you are wondering.
“So, the single source for news reports on the PAF pilot’s death and background has been Umar’s post, which identified the pilot as “Shahzaz-ud-Din”. Newslaundry’s investigation shows that Air Marshal Waseem ud-Din has two sons named Waqar-ud-Din and Aleem-ud-Din. In this picture found on Facebook, Air Marshal Waseem-ud-Din stands with his two sons”
“According to their Facebook profiles, both sons live in the UK. Aleem-ud-Din studies at Royal Holloway, University of London. He previously worked with companies like Telenor—as CLM planning and design officer and pricing executive for four years, till 2018—and Starcom Worldwide in Pakistan. He did his Bachelor’s degree in economics from the National University of Sciences and Technology.”
Several Indian media outlets ran a story about a Wing Commander Shahzaz Ud Din being the Pakistani pilot who lost his life during the Indo-Pak aerial engagement, based on hearsay and unfounded social media claims.
https://www.boomlive.in/the-mysterious-tale-of-paf-wing-commander-shahzaz-ud-din/ – Another Indian source
‘This leads us to believe that the story about a third son called Wing Commander Shahzaz Ud Din has been made up by using the identity of Air Marshal Waseem Uddin as an inspiration’
… Next name
Buranhmm what would be the reason for the JF-17 to withdraw because of the TEjas?
Obviously. They only go to mediocre airshows like Farnborough and Paris as they are too scared of Tejas.
They were never going to LIMA. Only a Navy helicopter was confirmed.
Malaysian president is in Pakistan and will be the guest of honour at 23rd March military parade.
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