BuranI really don’t see this loss as an event shapechanger.
you only send in assets that you are prepared to lose as eventually you will lose one. the US has had this happened with UAV’s in afghanistan where they have lost a number of predators.
Isn’t that the whole point of a stealth drone, that you won’t get noticed and brought down?
I doubt Americans keep their advanced drones sitting idle in a hangar, waiting for a time when it will be acceptable to loose the technology. They might be using other drones we don’t even know about. When situation requires they use everything they have, UBL helicopter and this Iranian drone being the recent cases.
What’s the point of advanced weapons if you are cant use them when needed for the fear of loosing few?
Buranyeh, why the hell yellow sand color as if it is a prototype? If they did strip the paint off, they did a damn good job quickly. But for what purpose? And why would US pait it as such. In case it falls it blends with sand ? 🙂 Its makes no sense to me?
It won’t be the first aircraft to be painted in a desert camouflage. Maybe Israel AF also painted their jets to blend in with the sand after they crash.
BuranWhat will happen to those with BMI airmiles? will they get BA miles?
BuranTypical Pakistan style.
we let Pakistan go very lightly:mad: than must be punished than or now
Well I dont really know what you are trying to get at. But you are more than welcome to have a rational discussion.
BuranTks for the info. But any links or mag that you can direct me to on the same?
I was interested too but couldn’t find any credible source for this engagement apart from some random blogs.
Most likely it’s one of the legends born out of fog of war.
On the contrary the only news source I found was about PAF engaging IAF, as below.
I appreciate that there won’t be an independent source to confirm this, but has anyone seen any official/credible source from Indian side? Anything in the press etc?
PAF engages Indian Air Force
9th July, 1999, APP, Dawn/PNS
ISLAMABAD: In what was a classic pre-dawn interception, air defence interceptors of the Pakistan Air Force, comprising of two PAF F-7MP fighter jets, intercepted and engaged intruding Indian Air Force (IAF) fighter jets which crossed the Line of Control in Jammu & Kashmir and violated Pakistan’s airspace by several kilometres. The IAF fighters were believed to be two MiG-27ML ground-attack aircraft and two Mirage 2000H fighters providng top cover. The event took place in the early hours of Thursday, 8 July 1999, at approximately 2:30 a.m. (0230 hours) PST.
According to sources, PAF F-7MP fighters were supported by two F-16 Fighting Falcons providing back-up which conducted electronic jamming of the intruder IAF ‘bandits’. The F-16s were scrambled whereas the F-7MPs were already on Combat Air Patrol (CAP) duty when the incursion occured.
The PAF F-7MP air defence interceptors were immediately vectored by GCI towards the intruding ‘bandits’ within seconds of their crossing into Pakistan airspace. The PAF fighters intercepted the Indian fighters and ‘locked’ on them with their missiles. In fighter terms, this is an invitation for a dogfight. However, the IAF fighters refused to engage in return and instead fled straight back into the airspace of Indian-held Kashmir in what PAF pilots perceived was sheer panic. “It was not a very orderly or dignified exit”, remarked a PAF officer.
According to PAF sources, even the Dynamic Launch Zone (DLZ) perimetres had been met for launching of the air-to-air missiles which means that the PAF pilots had gotten the AAM tone indicating the bandits were well within shoot-down range of the PAF fighters. A missile tone is achieved when the missile’s infrared heat-seeker or its radar has picked up the hostile aircraft. “It looks as if we gave them a fright”, says a PAF officer, “Their RWR signal would have been blasting off in the cockpits as our interceptors tracked them”. If the missiles were short-range heat-seeking missiles, then this would imply that the distance between the PAF and the IAF fighters was less than 10 kilometres – “Too close for comfort”, as the PAF officer remarked.
PAF fighters did not shoot down the Indian fighters even though they were within range of the air-to-air missiles of the PAF fighters. The Indian fighters were perilously close to the Line of Control and their wreckage may have fallen inside Indian-held Kashmir territory which, going by their track record, would have given the Indian authorities the opportunity to blame the PAF for the intrusion.
According to the PAF Rules of Engagement (ROE), three conditions have to be met in peacetime before an enemy aircraft can be shot down: (i) the enemy aircraft must violate Pakistan’s airspace; (ii) it must be a combat aircraft and (iii) its wreckage must fall inside Pakistani territory. ‘Peacetime’ in the context of India and Pakistan means when no war has been declared.
In this instance, the third criterion may not have been met as the IAF fighters were too close to the LoC and their wreckage may have fallen on either side of the LoC.
“All the intruder Indian fighters fled when our air defence fighters locked on them”, said a PAF officer.
A second intrusion occured seven and a half hours later, at approximately 10:00 a.m. (1000 hours) PST, when two IAF fighter jets violated Pakistan’s airspace in the Mushkoh-Olding sector in Jammu & Kashmir. Two F-7MPs were immediately scrambled from a forward PAF air base to intercept the two intruders. However, the IAF jets sensing the PAF fighters fast approaching them, turned back and fled into Indian-held Kashmir before the PAF interceptors could get a missile lock-on them.
In both cases, the IAF intruders had taken off from Srinagar air base, according to PAF GCI controllers.
It is pertinent to mention here that earlier this year, on 27 May 1999, two intruder Indian Air Force MiGs – a MiG-27ML and a MiG-21bis – were shot down by the Pakistan Army using Anza-II SAMs after the IAF jets had violated Pakistan’s airspace in the Jammu & Kashmir region. The wreckage of both the Indian aircraft fell 10-12 kilometres inside Pakistani territory near Hamzi Ghund. One Indian pilot, Flt. Lt. K. Nachiketa, was captured whereas the other pilot, Sqn. Ldr. Ajay Ahuja, was killed. Sqn. Ldr. Ahuja’s body was returned to India with full military honours and Flt. Lt. Nachiketa was released shortly afterwards.
BuranCharming join the program late, with a subsidised order and then get a choice manufacturing deal to recoup what ever they may actually spend !!!!. I bet some of the major partners are going to be less than impressed with that deal
US and Israeli relationship is very complicated, they are already getting these planes for free.
On that note saw James Rubin’s interview on CNN the other day, he said some times when the US president had to get something out of Congress, they had to ask Israel.
Its never purely business.
Burana similar situation arose during the Kargil war in 1999 and 2 F-16s were locked onto by a single IAF MiG-29..in the words of PAF Air Cmde Kaiser Tufail
The score could well have ended up being 2-0 in the favour of MiG-29s !;)
Interesting article, very rare for a Pakistani military man to admit anything like that.
Whats your source? would love to read it in full.
BuranNice pics.
I am curious why PAF did not go for a Chinese tanker? Those should be cheaper and spare parts more easily available.
These are tanker + transport planes.
BuranThere’s no Photoshop smoke without a Photoshop fire!
BuranNothing wrong if Pakistan was not getting American military aid yes. In this case no.
So getting Military aid means you have sold off your sovereignty to the US govt and they can barge in when ever they feel like it?
I’m sure if you ask any ordinary Pakistani (not an army general) they will tell the Americans to take all their aid and shove off back where they came from.
On that note didn’t US provide military aid to Russia when a forest fire got near a nuclear site?
BuranAnd I am sure that Americans will remember the following
- Bin Laden living in a military town for years with the likely tacit approval and assistance of elements of the Pakistani military and ISI
- Harboring and covertly supporting the Taliban in a conflict that has killed thousands of American and NATO troops in Afghanistan.
- Letting China have covert access to American military equipment (not talking about the stealth helo per se) given to Pakistan.
- Proliferating nuclear weapons technology to countries like Iran, Libya and North Korea.
To me it looks like both countries to use your phrase have been “on the receiving end” from one another.
The difference is one nation is not supplying the other with billions in military and civilian aid.
Believe me they are not giving away all that money out of the goodness of their heart.
All the things you mentioned happened after US walked away and imposed sanctions on Pakistan post Soviet pull out. Pakistanis owed no loyalty to US during that decade, and things have still not recovered from that.
It was Americans who came running back to Pakistan post 9/11 with promises of billions in aid and threats of being bombed to Stone Age! Time and time again Americans have helped the generals to take over and undermine democracy in Pakistan.
Pakistan is like a dumped girl friend, who America wants to get in bed with again. Now Pakistan is turning into a gold digger. Both countries need to understand that ‘Hell hath no fury like a country scorned’
BuranMemo to Pakistan:
- India is not going to invade.
- India won’t nuke you in some sort of first strike.
- Indian are too busy building their economy and trying to take care of their people than they are massing tanks on the border of Pakistan and loading bombs onto Mirages or Jaguars.
- Kashmir CAN be settled if both sides really want to do so.
- India does not want to set up some regime in Afghanistan to try and box in Pakistan
- The ISI and large parts of the Pakistani military establishment are a de facto government unto their own who march to the beat of their own drummer
- Pakistan is probably not letting the Americans take a look at a JF-17 or a Zulfiquar class frigate for example because they know that it would not be a smart move to treat their Chinese ally in such a way. Why is it OK to do so with American kit?
- The minute America is done in Afghanistan is the minute I truly believe they are done with Pakistan.
The shame in all of this in my opinion is that the Pakistani military is a highly professional and competent force made up of the most part of patriots who wish nothing more than to serve their country and see it better off when they retire than when they enlisted. The reality is that until the institution itself forces change from within, and forces those elements within the Pakistani security establishment to come to heel and stop running their own wars and foreign policy then these conflicts will only continue in the future, and Pakistan will be left behind by the rest of the world, particularly India.
You think Pakistani’s dont know how long Americans will last as their friends? Maybe you have forgotten the last 30 year history between the 2 countries. They have been on the receiving end far too many times. This time they are taking US on a wild goose chase, for a change.
BuranOn a serious note. Pakistan has made over $ 20 Billion out of the United States over 2002-2010 and thats not taking the time value of money into the question.
Pakistan recapitalized its armed forces with US assistance already. The term Grand Bargain is apt.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/pakaid.pdf
Direct Overt U.S. Aid Appropriations and Military Reimbursements to Pakistan, FY2002-FY2012
Prepared by the Congressional Research Service for distribution to multiple congressional offices, May 6, 2011
(rounded to the nearest millions of dollars)2002 to 2010: Grand Total (without 2011 numbers) $ 20,713 mn
And
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R41856.pdf
Pretty much everything, from fighters to PGMs to artillery to radars to antiship missiles, APCs, TOW missiles, trainers …and yet? Not enough, more grand bargaining required.
If it is about the numbers game, than read this
Pakistan’s war on terror since 9/11 cost $68 bn
http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=6446&Cat=13
Despite all the gizmos you have listed here, Pakistanis are more scared of going out than before they joined up with the Americans. Propping up Generals is no way of winning the people. When will the Americans learn?
BuranGood work Pakistan, maybe next time Americans will think twice before barging in.
American friendship has been a huge liability for Pakistan, it has almost ripped the country apart. No amount of money is worth 30,000 civillian and 5000 military deaths.
BuranAs much as we have problems with Pakistan the last thing India needs is U.S military at our doorstep.
By the why do you think Russians will arm the Taleban if anything they have been very co-operative over logistics and all for the Afghan war. Russian don’t want Taleban any more than the American wants him.
America has a worse history of arming irresponsible groups than Russians.
Depends how much you help them.
Every one hated Taliban, be it Russians or Iranians.
As one Iranian general put it ‘We hope the Americans win in Afghanistan, but we want them to bleed as they do so’
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