BuranOnce again, IAF has so many planes to replace by 2035 or so that there is room for both Tejas and another, somewhat larger, single engine plane. New plane requirement doesn’t necessarily mean Tejas is dead.
So which current single engined fighter will LCA replace and which fighters need a new bigger single engined fighter as replacement?
I thought LCA will replace all MIG-21, 23 and 27s.
Burannone of the Russian or new US designs are using DSI. its limiting for supersonic
Russia I agree, but which new US fighter doesn’t have DSI? I can only think of F-35 what else have they designed recently?
All new Chinese fighters also have DSI. J-10C, F-20 and F-31
BuranMirage 2000 is one of bench mark fighter for India. Regarding others fighters because those are offered to complement LCA. So I don’t see a big issue with this. Even F-16 is about to close production line, that’s why its production line is offered to India. Lets not say much about Gripen.
Having RFI for another single engine fighter is not equal to LCA is not good. Which some people here trying to make.
Everyone is free to make stories …. so keep going 😉
That wasn’t the argument at all.
The question was, Is the additional fighter line being sought because LCA is not advanced/mature enough to compete with the said fighters (F-16, Gripen etc) or is it due to some other reasons.
Now we know that India has been claiming that LCA is as good as F-16 and Gripen (there are multiple news sources to back this up) so there must be some other reasons behind acquiring a similar fighter jet rather than ramping up the LCA production rate.
I’m not sure what reason would be good enough to go down this path and that’s where we are having the debate.
BuranBecause there was no proliferation of missile technology. No proliferation of the ability to design a missile capable of >300km.
So China can legally supply Ballistic/Cruise missiles to Iran and North Korea since both have domestic missiles of much longer ranges?
I don’t think that will be acceptable to the western countries through!
BuranHow did USA get away with supplying Tomahawks and Tridents to UK?
Are there different rules for US vs other countries?
BuranSo even you yourself don’t regard the LCA as in the same “class” as the JF-17? 😀
Even though theoretically they are both light fighters in the same weight category. the F-16 and J-10 are much heavier and only a moron would class them together. Obviously the PAF doesn’t think that way either, otherwise they wouldn’t be scouting for F-16s from anywhere when they have a line for the JF-17s delivering so many per year.
Yes absolute morons indeed :highly_amused:
The ADA says the Tejas Mark 1 is better than its contemporaries, such as the French Mirage 2000, the U.S. F-16 and the Swedish Gripen.
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editorial/long-journey-to-the-sky/article5542125.ece
BuranInferior to what? The JF-17? You have got to be kidding us!
Lol I was referring to fighters of the same class, single engined F-16, Gripen, J-10C. But if you think it belongs with JF-17 than that’s your inferiority complex. Maybe we really give LCA more credit than it deserves!
BuranI am not saying they should abandon the LCA alltogether, but instead build and operate a smaller number. Learn as much as possible from the experience but don’t base your security on it. You need to move on.
If you build, say, a total of 100 Tejas mk1/mk1a; that should give you more than enough to learn from! Then don’t waste more time on it, and start development on the AMCA instead of the mk2. The mk1a is too little too late, but the mk2 will be even later.
I may be wrong of course, and perhaps the jump from mk1a to AMCA will be just too big a jump for India. However if you need to develop mk2/mk3 before you are ready for the AMCA then you do have a big problem, since the rest of the world is rapidly moving to 5th gen.
The problem is if you treat LCA as a learning project for India than that’s all it will turn out to be, a technology demonstrator in numbers and a side project with no utility for IAF.
The only way LCA and Indian aviation industry will move ahead is if there’s some skin in the game. The progression to AMCA will require on-going investment in the LCA program.
No one has ever moved direct from high school to masters degree even with a lot of hand holding and extra tuitions.
BuranIndia has too much invested in LCA, money, national prestige etc. Simply giving it up will not be that easy and there are no guarantees that AMCA will not suffer the same fate.
You have to start from some where, simply rolling back the LCA program will not help India in building their aviation industry. What will India contribute to F-16 or Gripen other than perhaps manufacturing foreign designed parts?
India has to accept that their first modern fighter (LCA) will be inferior in comparison with fighters of a similar class for at least a generation. When their industry is mature enough surely they can produce world class products. For the time being they need to bite the bullet and carry on with LCA MK1/MK2/MK3 etc
BuranIndia can still do it, you just need to get rid of democracy so a dictator can ram things down everyones throat. the risk is that if the dictator is competent, things will get done. but if you have a Mugabe kind of guy.. well..
a shame China chose Pakistan over India because the J-31 is really what AMCA is.
Why is India going for yet another fighter type? Is LCA now not good enough or is the production too slow?
Also China did not choose Pakistan over India by flip of a coin, I’m sure there are common goals on regional issues etc. Even if you forget the Indo-China war.
BuranThe Tejas Mk1 FOC configuration is as good as if not better than the Mirage-2000I and MiG-29UPG upgrade, all for an aircraft with the MiG-21’s footprint and cost to operate.
How is that possible? even if you discount the initial cost difference between Mig-21 and LCA. The operating cost of LCA would be significantly higher given the advanced equipment installed, which requires on-going maintenance.
Wasn’t Mig-21 meant to be cheap and cheerful low end fighter?
BuranHAL has a bad record when it comes to production , look even lately they have faced issues with ALH production as recent CAG report indicated which they have been building for more than a decade now.
I dont mind IAF giving some small orders now so that they perfect their production skills in building rather give them a large order and then make a bad name for Tejas ! They are quite capable of doing that.
The Tejas in current form did not meet the ASR laid by IAF , and to meet those and keep it current for next decade they have to do the Mk1A ….I think its a optimum compromise between the current Tejas and Mk2.
The big challenge is for ADA to deliver that in Time they have laid or promised to IAF which mean get the IOC and FOC going and meeting the ASR and HAL to do a good work with building Tejas with the current model to gain the trust of IAF to secure bigger orders for Mk1A. Development & Production is a cyclic evil they have to fix both to get the job done.
Least be assured IAF would order big number of Tejas Mk1A if ADA/HAL delivers on their promise.
Even MKI started getting orders when HAL managed to build a good job from locally sourced raw material at one stage HAL even struggled with paint job for MKI
The only solution to the LCA saga is a risk sharing approach between HAL and IAF. They fail and succeed jointly.
Don’t know why given the nature of Indian inter-department relations, someone thought its a good idea to develop a product independently of the main user without their neck on the line. Would have been much more successful (maybe not cost wise) if the funds were given to IAF directly and asked to get their fighter produced. Later on that could have been transferred to another government/commercial entity.
BuranThe version I like is this one (I’m not making this up myself).
Indian special forces were air dropped near the border by C17s. They landed behind enemy lines while UAVs kept a watch overhead.
They moved on foot few miles behind the border and started killing the militants who were sleeping in the makeshift camps, the total numbers killed are around 150-200. While this was going on a truck carrying Pakistani soldiers, including a contingent of special forces was approaching. They were engaged by Indians and made to flee the area with some casualties.
The operation on 7 different sites lasted few hours and while it was being carried out helicopter gunships were stationed near the front line for support. The forces planted explosives and retreated across the border (no info on how). Than the National security advisor called the PM who hadn’t slept all night to say one word “success” after that the PM went for Yoga to start his day.
Mildly entertaining, Yes. Fully accurate, maybe not.
Both countries have done a lot worse to each other, from war in 1971 to Kargil and Mumbai etc etc. Doesn’t make any sense at all to hide the facts or evidence for a minor attack. People in at least one country have been sold a lemon! Doveryai, no proveryai (Trust but Verify)
Back to topic of whether helicopters could have been used. Highly unlikely and unsuitable for this kind of a mission. You don’t want to advertise your arrival from few miles away, especially if you are planning to conduct a 4-5 hour long mission just hundreds of meters away from army posts.
BuranI call bull on this. Flying a helicopter to infiltrate special forces just 500m to 3km behind a heavily defended frontier borders on suicide. With a target so nearby why not just hit it with artillery? let alone send heli-borne special forces.
There was also news of paratroopers being dropped from C17s for HALO jump behind enemy lines. Lack of any official information is letting peoples imagination run wild, on both sides.
BuranA PAF C130-E will be attending the RIAT airshow next weekend
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