TajThe next step in my opinion would be an aircraft along the lines of the L-159 or Hawk 200. Radar equipped,AAM, good air to ground capability. The L-159 in particular with stored Czech examples available would be a good choice. Not as costly as F-16 or Gripen. They would provide a decent CAP capability and with the Irish Army operating in areas of higher threat levels on peace keeping/enforcement missions these days, these aircraft would provide a good level of training for operating in the multi-service operation that modern day peace enforcement missions have become, for example calling in an airstrike etc.
TajExplanation accepted. I’m in no way political myself by any means! I just took exception to the way your post came across and now I accept that it was unintended on your behalf. I replied to it in open forum because the comment was made in open forum. I would agree that an armed PC-9 could indeed be classed as a COIN aircraft but it was the words that this “would be far more useful to them” that got my blood temperature rising! Thanks for the clarification. Back to the aircraft.
TajAll Ireland requires is helicopters to meet various roles including SAR and a maritime patrol type to help protect its fisheries. The PC9 gives them a type capable of COIN operations which is far more useful to them then a squadron of F16.
SAR is no longer a function of the IAC and is undertaken by the Coast Guard who contract the role to CHC. Maritime patrol is undertaken using two CN-235 MPA.
Clarify why you think we would have a greater need for a Counter Insurgency (COIN) aircraft? I haven’t seen or heard of too many insurgencies in the Republic in oh say 85 years.I find the phrase “a type capable of COIN operations which is far more useful to them” quite frankly insulting. Being from the UK I would have assumed you would know that the only part of the island of Ireland that has experienced any form of civil unrest/insurgency actually lies under your government’s jurisdiction. Maybe you should get a squadron of PC-9’s for the RAF??? I wouldn’t be so ignorant as to suggest you would need them.
TajThe Irish Air Corps has always had an armed capability since it’s inception. Lose that and it will be very hard to get back. The PC-9’s primary role is training but they have been used for armed patrolling of airspace around summit meetings against light aircraft/helicopter threats as a back up to ground based RBS-70 SAM and EL-70/Flycatcher AAA.
I think the point is to maintain a pool of trained individuals that could form the basis of a fleet and role expansion if ever the need arose.
TajNo point in having JDAM/JSOW/BVR without a platform! Good flying though!
TajTajTajTajEven thought the Irish deployment in Liberia used Russian helicopters I dont see anything but western equipment being bought. More importantly the tender requires new built machines only.
I attached some photos of Irish troops operating out of Ukranian Hips and an Irish AML-20 Armoured car disembarking from a Mi-26 Halo.
GoldenDragon, the Sikorsky bid was actually declared the winner of the tender but the whole thing was cancelled and did not proceed to a firm order.
The reason was this-the tender did not require or rule out the inclusion of Offset Trade Arrangements by the bidders. Sikorsky offered an offset arrangement with FLS Aerospace worth £300m in their bid and there was intense political pressure to accept, as it would guarantee the future of the FLS facility. Eurocopter who did not offer an offset but said retrospectively that they could have if it had been specified, took the Dept of Defence to the High Court seeking an injunction against an order being placed. Before the controversy progressed too far, the whole thing was called off, citing a change in the economic climate. It is obvious however that the Dept did not think it had a strong case, but it is unfortunate that a foreign company can interfere to such an extent in the selection process for a small order of 3-5 MLH, which the Irish Air Corps could be operating as we speak.
TajTwin Engine
There wont be an EC-120/130 component-the tender specifically requires twin engine helicopters.
The PC-9 weapons argument isn’t really relevant when it comes to the helicopters. Swiss law forbids arms exports, that is why the weapons were procured in a separate contract(which was facilitated by Pilatus under their bid).The tender requires prices for this option.
Agreed on the questionability of the overall importance of this part of the requirement though-it seems to stem from the fire support provided by Mil Mi-24 Hinds in support of the Mi-8/Mi-26 deployments of Irish troops in Liberia and the need to develop the ability to call in helicopter support.
In fact it is something in the Blackhawk size is preferred within the Corps and the Army where it is known to be favoured by the Army Ranger Wing-who will have a big say in the final choice, though you are right in saying that there is an expectancy that something at the lower end of the scale will be bought. However the wording of the tender disputes this, placing price only third in the order of importance. The fallout from the Sikorsky bid the last time originated in the selection process and not the Sikorsky bid itself so I wouldnt really take that into account in this decision making process.
As the EC-635 is below the requirements for the 4 x Utility helicopters, it could be in service with 20 armys and it wouldn’t make a difference. The EC-145 is a lightweight and just meets the minimum requirements with little or no spare capacity.
However, the EC-635 is definitely in contention for the 2 x LUH section of the tender. Remember that separate manufacturers can be selected for both types.
There is a story behind the journalist from said publication who pestered the Minister on the day of the PC-9 delivery(21/4/2004). The Minister aparantly was talking to someone at the time and when approached by the journalist in question as to when new helicopters were being ordered the Minister replied tersely ” in two weeks”. This was a reference to the publication of the tender (which took four weeks) and the said journalist ran with the IAC to order EC-135 and EC-145 in two weeks.
TajWill do!
I’ll keep an ear to the ground Ja!
Yellow Sun-the EC-135 and EC-635 are two versions of the same helicopter, civilian and military.This helicopter would fall into the light utility class, ie 2 crew plus 5 troops. As the word military is specifically used the EC-635 will be the one put forward.
Can you tell me what Eurocopter can put forward for the larger utility heli requirement that would be capable of carrying 8 soldiers and is in widespread military use? EC-145? German Border Police are hardly a military organisation and anyway the EC-145 cant provide fire support. EC-155 the latest version of the Dauphin-would have no other military customers. Cougar is too large and NH-90 too expensive. Eurocopter for once have a very weak hand when it comes to supplying the Irish Air Corps with helicopters.
I can see the current strength of the euro against the dollar being a factor in the decision making, although the current anti-American sentiment might cause political implications for such a decision.
Another interesting point is that the time limit for the options on two of the larger utility helicopters expires at the same time as the actual prices required under the tender-ie 160 days after the closing date for submission. This suggests that if a larger utility type is declared the winner 4 will be purchased and if a smaller helicopter wins, the options will be exercised immediately bringing the total order to 6.
TajCommon Mistake
Aer Chorps na h-Eireann is the Irish name , but the official name is Irish Air Corps.
Dont know about the buy being all Eurocopter Yellow Sun, the suppliers must supply the names of other operators using the helicopters put forward to discuss their suitability for the Irish roles.
The problem that the Irish Air Corps experienced with the Dauphins centered around the fact that Irish aircraft were unique and parts were difficult to source. For that reason a standard military aircraft is being sought in both categories.
Considering that there are no current military operators of the EC-145/EC-155, I dont see how any suitable operators names can be provided. Alright for the LUH there are military operators of the EC-635, but unless the NH-90 is offered there are no suitable others.
If there are any front runners at the moment it could be the A109/AB139 combination. The USCG will operate both types also.
This tender allows suppliers to bid for either helicopters and not necessarily both and as such, Sikorsky will only be bidding for the larger utility helicopter.
Ja strangely enough, it is planned to do all pilot training in the 2 LUH helicopters. Whether they will outsource basic training to private operators is a different story but the pilots that will be put forward for helicopter flying in the future will already have completed a 200 hour PC-9 course and a 50 hour twin engine course on the King Air. The Gazelle and Alouettes, both single engine types are being retired, so there would be a situation of new helicopter pilots transitioning directly onto a twin engine helicopter.
The timeframe for this is extremely short-a final decision will be made by October and early deliveries are sought.
As regards the cancelled S-92 order, a recent Dept of Defence statement has said that the MLH requirement is still under review and a decision will be made after this tender has been finalised. It is costing the Irish Governemnt €45 m per anum to outsource SAR.
TajJa,
It appears that we are finally getting military helicopters here and that after recent experience by Irish troops on overseas missions no expense is being spared this time. In fact, initial cost is only third in importance on the requirements with operational capability taking preference over all else.
R-44 is well below the requirements for the light utility helicopter -it must seat 2 crew plus 5 passengers, two sliding doors and be capable of sling loading a 1000kg load minimum, be NVG capable and be big enough for 1/2 people to Fast Rope from each side at the same time.It must also have a rescue winch installed and be capable of Air Ambulance and VIP transport.
For that type of heli you would be talking about something in the EC-635/A-109 class.
For the larger heli, the requirement is for 2 crew plus 8 troops(minimum) in light battle order. These four helicopters must also be capable of NVG and Fast roping and be capable of carrying a 1500kg slung load minimum.
The most interesting requirement is for these helicopters to have fixed GPMG mounts in both doors and be capable of “providing limited fire support with a broad range of basic weapons”
They must also be capable of the secondary roles as mentioned above and there are options on a further two.
Contenders AB139/Blackhawk.
TajThanks FTD!
FTD, PM me-I might be able to save you some looking time.
Dont worry folks, grammatical errors have all been changed prior to printing-it just happens that by not using in house designers we are still awaiting the improved version to upload onto the website. Believe me, outsourcing design work requires one to develop eagle eyes quick smart. Yes Yellow Sun, a good sound smack might rectify the situation!
I wholly agree that first impressions are vital in such a venture and while imperfect, it was necessary to put something visual on the web site, albeit temporarily. I will endeavour to have the probelm rectified in the next 24 hours. Apologies for causing deep offence to some elements!
As regards the economics of the whole thing, well it does require some juggling. The market is not huge so the strategy involves not relying on volume of sales to stay afloat. There are other areas where income can and is being generated.Have no fear folks, we will learn from the mistakes of others and will do our utmost to give Irish Aviation the voice that it sadly lacks at the moment.
TajHi Tony,
Is it not a well documented fact that Allied airmen were indeed given preferential treatment?
Apart from the fact that I never mentioned the fate of aircraft in the first place…Internment:Imprisionment without trial.Does not apply to aircraft.
Whatever was airworthy was either returned to their owners or pressed into IAC service.These tended to be allied types only because the Germans had a habbit of destroying everything usable.The only German aircraft that laded intact was a defector at the end of the war who arrived in Gormanstown.This aircraft was immediately handed over to the Allies for study of its radar.
Sign In
