Ship 741EADS Mako
Ship 741My point was/is, if you are going to buy off the shelf technology and NOT do a big development program, why not buy the best engine available now? Which, in this case appears to be the CF6.
The GTF won’t be ready for a number of years at any thrust, and it won’t be ready at the size needed for the 767 for much longer, perhaps ever.
Ship 741Actually if I was EADS I would be sorely tempted to set up the production facility in Alabama anyway for civil cargo production.
Yes I know the French unions especially would be in hysterics about it but there would be a certain poetic nature about the idea. It would make it far easier to respond to future US contracts and stick two fingers up at Boeing! In the end Boeing managed to eliminate all domestic rivals by buying MD and push Lock Mart out of the competitive market (I admit Airbus also shares some of the guilt of pushing MD and Lock Mart out as well). Boeing would hate having a domestic wide body rival as well and was one of the reasons they fought tooth and nail to win the contract.
Boeing can’t stop EADS moving civil a330 cargo conversion to the US…just a thought!:cool:
But you seem to be assuming that Airbus is either altruistic or dedicated to “hurting” Boeing….in fact they have a political component also, and not just due to the unions. The industrialists and the politicians want to have the production and jobs in Europe…..the book “the sporty game” among others details the overt political nature of Airbus.
Ship 741They’ve chosen the Pratt & Whitney PW4062
And it is inferior to the other 20-25 year old engine available in almost every way. The CF-6-80C2 uses less fuel, runs longer on the wing, and has a lower in flight shut down rate. Straight up comparison between a PW powered 767-300ER in airline service with one powered by the GE yields about 5,000 lbs more revenue payload for the GE on a 4,000 mile route, same winds, etc.
I have no association with any engine manufacturer, but it appears to me that the USAF blatantly favors PW, for what reason I cannot figure, since they have practically been run out of the civil market the last 25 or so years. The continue getting sole source tactical fighter contracts, and are going to use the profits to develop the GTF for the civil market in a desperate attempt to regain life.
USAF finally came to their senses on the F16 program, after the GE advantage was so pronounced that it was almost embarassing, but they (USAF) seem to have no shame, or are so beholden to certain politicians on key committees that they have no choice.
Look at the history: USAF unreliable PW engine on F111, USN unreliable PW engine on F-14. Navy F-4 and F-18 programs, all GE powered and were/are model programs. Underpowered PW powered KC-135 re-engined with CFM56 (50% GE), program pays for itself in fuel savings alone, not even accounting for the increased reliability. Now USAF chooses the poorest option on the new tanker…..go figure? Meanwhile, USAF re-engines GE powered C5 with GE engine that they could have had 20 years ago, and which would have already paid for itself in fuel and reliability.
Given that engine choice is a huge decision in a civil program, and is also very controversial right now on the F35 program, its rather amazing that PW seems to be flying under the radar on this order. One wonders who is running the show?
Ship 741And pray that the pilot flying has mastered the vicious landing characteristics of this recalcitrant beast!
Ship 741Sheer fantasy. Extrapolate Bush-era budget blowouts for decades ignoring both the national debt and a future demographic crisis which, whilst not as severe as that faced by many Asian and European nations, is still very real, and fap away. :rolleyes:
Agree completely. USAF claimed the tankers were desperately needed 8 years ago when the original brouhaha went down. Yet, no capabilities have been lost in the intervening time…..and there are still over 500 tankers available in the existing fleet.
Its amazing to me that the order is even going forward at all, considering the size of the deficit, the reduced need due to fewer and fewer tactical aircraft in the fleet, and the large existing fleet that is good till 2040.
To my European friends who contend that Boeing getting the order is pure politics, I would respond that the entire program is pure politics.
And to top it off, they’re equipping the airplane with an obsolete engine that the commercial airlines have been operating for 23 years!
Ship 741Agreed, an Airbus order from LH is hardly news.
Ship 741Quadbike – yes he was a stabilising force but so is any dictator ruling by force, simply because instability is crushed.
Saddam Hussein comes to mind as another example, look what happened after he was toppled, half of those supporting the effort turned against it and confusion ensued.
Ship 741Quadbike – yes he was a stabilising force but so is any dictator ruling by force, simply because instability is crushed.
Saddam Hussein comes to mind as another example, look what happened after he was toppled, half of those supporting the effort turned against it and confusion ensued.
Ship 741Back to thoughts about the Empire:
Has anyone ever noticed that the places colonized and organized by the British are, while not without fault, mostly wealthy and first world, among the nicer places to live? United States, Australia, portions of Canada, South Africa, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc.
By comparison consider the places colonized by the French, Spanish, and Dutch: Large portions of Africa, South America, and Central America that are perpetually in Civil War and where millions languish in destitution. Haiti anyone? (The frightfully poor DR next door almost seems pleasant by comparison).
While one might argue that the persons of Hawaii for instance might have been better off had Cook not found them, it is right frighful to recall what the Spanish did to the native peoples of Jamaica, for example, basically giving them a choice between slavery and death.
Ship 741Back to thoughts about the Empire:
Has anyone ever noticed that the places colonized and organized by the British are, while not without fault, mostly wealthy and first world, among the nicer places to live? United States, Australia, portions of Canada, South Africa, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc.
By comparison consider the places colonized by the French, Spanish, and Dutch: Large portions of Africa, South America, and Central America that are perpetually in Civil War and where millions languish in destitution. Haiti anyone? (The frightfully poor DR next door almost seems pleasant by comparison).
While one might argue that the persons of Hawaii for instance might have been better off had Cook not found them, it is right frighful to recall what the Spanish did to the native peoples of Jamaica, for example, basically giving them a choice between slavery and death.
Ship 741Considering the numerous mishaps of GE-90-115B and ensuing forced diversions, that must qualify as the statement of the day.
Your assertion doesn’t seem to be supported by Boeing data, which indicates that the GE90-115B has the fewest “in flight shutdowns” of all 777 engines for the last 12 months…..and far less than any widely used 767 engine.
Ship 741Let’s be brutally honest about this.
Most passengers aren’t enthusiasts and couldn’t give a hoot about the type of aircraft they’re flying in, so long as they arrive at their destination reasonably on time and in tolerable comfort.
They sit on the inside, after all.
Hear Hear! Well said. The only thing I would add that you didn’t mention is price, most pax just want the cheapest price, at least until they get onboard, and then they demand service, comfort, etc.
As far as the airline, they want maximum revenue with minimum risk. Its hard to fill big airplanes, thus the very small number of VLA’s that have been ordered. Take away the “protected” airlines, and I’m not convinced there is a VLA market at all.
Ship 741Current rumours at 787 European equipment suppliers are;-
1- 787 is to have two certification standards, the first 30 A/C delivered and then A/C delivery 30 onwards. Boeing will then replace all the first 30 deliveries with its second cert standard, and then re-market the original 30 airframes.2 – At the end of Q3 787 commercial certification will only allow a 1hour max flight time regardless of take off location and route.
While at first blush that seems a little extreme, in light of the fire that they had, and after some reflection, that plan seems reasonable from a safety point of view. There was not a traditional development program for this airplane, and all the new systems not to mention the primary structure have caused me some anxiety for some time. It was just too much change too fast, IMHO, and I posted as such on this website several years ago.
A more reasonable program might have been to have a composite airframe with traditional systems, or an all electric airplane in a conventional aluminium airframe. I believe Airbus is intending to put more traditional systems in the A350, and that should serve Airbus well when their time comes.
I still can’t get over how far Boeing has fallen from the “model program” that the 777 was, virtually no difficulties and 180 ETOPS on day 1, to this monstrosity.
Ship 741Ive allways wondered why its Taken the American Carriers this long to pick up on the 777-300ER Especially after its fantastic Sucess Abroad!
Too Big, Too big, too big.
The -300 basically carries 90% of the payload of a 747, and AA had none of those, NW (now Delta) had only 16. United had quite a few 747’s at one time, but their fleet has been shrinking for the last 10 years. In general, all of the American Carriers have been building frequency and downsizing capacity for quite some time now, thus all the 767’s in service, 772s and 330s to a lesser extent, and no 380 orders in the states at all.
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