Dear Members,
Just debating for the point of debating. It would seem that the best defense against a MOP type of bomb (guided or otherwise) would be either the PAC-3 or a land based version of the Sea Wolf. As far as I know the Russians do not have any “hittite” SAM systems including the TOR. Although I have heard that the HE warheads of the TOR missiles are substaintial.
Finally, I can not remember the details, but I think the largest air droppable ability today without the parachute method out the rear deck is a converted L1011 that carries a Pegus (sp?) satillite rocket under it. Maybe another member can remember the details. I always wondered why the USAF never just designed another Tallboy/GrandSlam type bomb and used the B-52s pylons designed to launch the X-15 to drop.
Jack E. Hammond
Quote:
JEH expressed polite skepticism about the manufacturing aspect, disagree if you must, but you are going off on a crusade here.
Garry> Yes, tank launched ATGMs are in production and use but a dumb unguided shell fitted with three shaped charge warheads is too hard to make…
Dear Garry,
You are totally missing the point. Making three HEAT warheads is not hard. It is not hard to have two HEAT warheads in the same projectile AS LONG as one is smaller and located a distance from the main HEAT warhead as is done on many ATGW to trip ERA on tank and other armored vehicles (with the TOW it is a collapasable probe and with HOT they of all thing eject the small HEAT charge forward when it approaches the target) But with the Russian triple HEAT 125mm shell you have two almost full size HEAT warheads almost pigbacked to each other like lego blocks. What I consider a miracle of Russian engineering is that they can get the back one (or for that matter even the front one) to explode first without disforming the front one. This has always been the problemm with pigback HEAT warheads — the explosion of one will disform the other one. This is the main reason that designers of ATGW have always went for larger diameter HEAT warheads.
Finally, read the below from the famous naval fiction author Patrick O’Brian. Please.
Jack E. Hammond
Few men like to be trampled upon, but it seems to me that some go to far in avoiding it, and try to assume a dominating postition from the start or at least as soon as the first civilities are over. Dr Johnson said that every meeting or conversation was a contest in which the man of superior parts was the victor. But I think he was mistaken: for that is surely wrangling or hostile debate, often self-defeating — it is not conversation as I understand it at all, a calm amicable interchange of opinions, news, information, reflextions, without any striving for superiority. (The Thirteen Gun Salute by Patrick O’Brian)
What exactly would a Roland do to a MOP? You still have a huge tungsten slug falling from some tens of thousands of feet.
In any case, if the B-2 was dropping it, wouldn’t there be some sort of high-jamming environment that the B-2 operates in to disturb SAMs?
Dear Member,
A Roland would not cause the MOP to explode true. But it would most likely damage its guidance fins, etc. Remember that a ROLAND missile during the Falklands War destroyed a 500lb bomb that a British Sea Harrier was lob bombing at the Stanley airfield. As for the Russian TOR I believe it would cause the MOP to explode in flight.
Jack E. Hammond
He’s speaking of the machining. Such a HEAT warhead would be pretty hard to manufacture and get consistent performance out of.
Dear Member,
Thank you. Also the detonation of the warhead. To work they have to be extremely precise, because if off any at all the back will interfer with the front distorting it as it goes off. How the Russians do it is nothing again as I have stated “a miracle”. Now the front warhead in the front that trips any ERA is another matter because of its location away from the main HEAT warheads.
Jack E. Hammond
Dear Garry,
To say it is complex is an understatement. And I stand by my statement. To get this complex of a HEAT warhead to work is nothing short of a miracle.
Jack E. Hammond
RE> Maybe someone remember about the A-300 ‘Airbus’ incident, when the US intel had issued a warning before about the new AG or anti-shipping capability of IRIAF F-14As!!!!
ANS> If I remember correctly that warning concerned a report that the IRAF had modified the F-14s to launch the Maverick missile.
Jack E. Hammond
What’s the Tigercat…never heard of it :confused:
The Tigercat is a land version of the short range UK Shorts Seacat antiair missile which at one time was the most used naval surface to air missile in the world. It is a simple CLOS subsonic missile.
Jack E. Hammod
SEACAT firing from light weight triple launcher
Tigercat launcher
Dear Members,
Some defense writers have stated that the SA-1 is an R&D of by Russia of the WW2 German WASSERFALL. Anyone agree or disagree or have any comments?
Jack E. Hammond
These weapons also have nose mounted precursor charges and rear mounted main charges, making a standoff probe redundant. In fact the curret 125mm HEAT round used by Russian tanks has three shaped charges that defeat ERA equipped targets and penetrate 950mm+ homogenous armour. One precursor charges and two seperate main charges.
Dear GarryB,
If the Russians have R&D successfully the type of 125mm warhead you have described they have achieved an engineering miricle (reports are that the Hellfire has two full size HEAT warheads). With todays’s antiarmor warheads you have a small HEAT warhead on a probe away from the main much larger HEAT warhead. The first smaller one goes off predetonating any ERA. It is so small as not to interfer with the larger HEAT charge behind it plus the probe places it away from the larger main HEAT warhead. But with what you have described, when the main HEAT warhead goes off it will distort the HEAT warhead behind it making it useless. Weapons designers have worked on trying to develop tandem full size HEAT wareheads for years. The reason is so you can keep the diameter or the ATGW within reason (ie the HOT is about the limit). If you can develop a double HEAT warhead that works, the first one will penetrate the armor so far and the second one will go from that first warheads penetration to increase it. Great in therory. If it works!
Jack E. Hammond
Note he says
Original reports that ATGM Kornet performance is severely degraded by ERA due to its peculiar order of internal components proved true as the ATGM with at least 100mm higher penetrating potential was not superior to a much lighter RPG-29.
This appears to be a variant of Kornet without tandem warhead, as with tandem warhead Kornet wouldnt get affected by ERA!
He also says penetration of Kornet (in 1999) > 750mm
But from latest figures:
http://www.shipunov.com/eng/atgw/kornet.htm
Penetration capability of HEAT warhead, mm 1000-1200
Dear Member,
There maybe some truth about the KORNET “order of its componets”. The KORNET does not have a probe with a precursor HEAT warhead so it could degraded with ERA. Many manufactures of ATGW are relocating the main HEAT warhead to the rear of the missile (with a tunnel through the substainer motor and other componets). I have no idea but if the KORNET’s main HEAT warhead is located in the front part of the missiles body this can cause a problem.
The French with their ERYX located the smaller precursor warhead in the frotn and the main warhead in the rear. (see link below). But either way the US Army should try and find out for sure one way or another. Either the Russians have accomplished some astonishing advances in HEAT warheads (the last great advance was the Swiss development of the trumpet shaped cone) or they have not. We need to know. Remember the US Navy had a disaster at Pearl Harbor because they believed it impossible to air drop torpedoes in shallow waters of that anchorage.
Jack E. Hammond
Folks,
It seems that in 1999 the Russian Army tested every antitank weapon they had against their three main tanks. And each tank was tested with AT weapons fired at it with extra protection and without (as they stated “stripped). The tests proved the Kornet was not as effective as thought and the lowly RPG29 was a true tank killer. See the link below. Very interesting photos.
Jack E. Hammond
Then the only thing they need for BrahMos to be a great system is a target set worth firing the bloody missiles against!!!. Let me edit that slightly – a target set worth firing the bloody missiles against that doesnt fly the stars and stripes!!!.
BRAVO! One of the most best statements made this year on this forum!!!
Jack E. Hammond
Folks,
I am not for sure, but I don’t think the HAWK is capable of intercepting an aircraft like the Mig-25 flying at high altitude. It is mainly a low-medium level SAM.
Also, while the US Marines wanted to keep their HAWK batteries they had to retire them around 2000 due to manpower concerns. The Marines are suppose to be getting a HMVEE system mounting the land launched version of the AMRAAM called CLAWS based on system developed by Norway.
Jack E. Hammond
BTW> The Marines in the 1980s were also very interested in the ROLAND but the US Army put a stop to those dreams.
Welcome mate, I live mainly in the navy section these days since that’s where my experience is…
Anyway the RSAF did well to have the S211 in service for so long. They took a bold gamble being one of only two countries to have it in service (The Phillippines being the other).
Dear Member,
You forgot HAITI. Yep, they bought one and were I believe the launch customer of all things. I wonder what happened to that one aircraft?
Jack E. Hammond