Grim901O rly? All operational or under development stealth aircraft do not include canards. This is a fact however, not my… opinion and that’s what my arguments are based on.
Sorry to spoil your fantasy.
You’ve picked the one bit of your argument that is actually fact, well done. Unfortunately, you also mashed the keyboard a few more times and wrote things like “canards are incompatible with stealth”. Back that up with fact. The fact that F22, 35 and B2 do not have Canards is not proof of anything, except that those aircraft do not have Canards.
And a cursory glance at an aircraft followed by “that sticks out a bit, that isn’t how Lockheed did it.” does not signify an unstealthy aircraft despite factual figures to the contrary.
Actually, isn’t the J-XX meant to be stealthy and have Canards? Note: There is no RCS figure that signifies a boundary between stealthy and non-stealthy, please be more specific.
Grim901That’s exaclty what the turks are doing in my opinion, and this is why I think that a greek gvt should stop playing their game, and instead shoot any intruder to put a stop to the intrusions. I seriously doubt the greek are playing the same game if you look a few seconds at their internal politics.
Nic
I’m afraid you may only be seeing one side of it, thanks to some (understandable) national bias. However you do seem to be coming over a little too aggressively on the issue.
From an international perspective, neither side is really in the right, and if the Greeks start shooting down Turkish planes for what is an incredibly minor provocation, they’d be in the wrong.
Imagine if NATO had started shooting down Soviet aircraft when they approached and entered our airspace or vice versa.
I’m no expert on Greek internal politics but are you really saying that Greeks don’t have internal political problems? Apart from the fact that every nation does, Greece seems to be having some problems at the moment (large riots last year etc) that a bit of common national pride towards an outside aggressor might help to solve.
Now could we please get back to topic as I and a few other have already tried? If you want to discuss this more PM me or make a thread elsewhere.
Grim901It’s not a case of fewer planes. the fact of the matter is that Airbus have spent so much money on projects that have gone over budget and over shedule, like the A380, that they don’t have the cash on hand to finish the project
And how is that the customers fault? Would you expect airlines to pay more for the A380 than they’d already signed and agreed on because the company can’t stick to budget.
Grim901OK, nobody can predict the future. But we can at least count on solid facts to make conclusions.
:rolleyes:
Oh, but of course the eurocanards have >0,1rcs. Especially that Rafale with that permenantly attached refueling probe is quite stealthy. Or the typhoon with the fan blades in public view. Or the Gripen, with all those antennas hanging around. Sure, no question about that. How stupid the american are, they spent tons of billions of $$$ in designing clean configurations.
Actually, at the end of the day, the X-36 is neither in production, nor operational and you are still speculating.
To begin with, the second picture you posted does not appear, you should upload it to imageshack or attach it.
There are hundreds of thousands of such drawings and plastic models. Sadly for your rhetoric, none of them has been approved for production. If and when this changes, we will, hopefully, still be here to resume the conversation. For the time being, all stealth aircraft lack canards: F-117, F-22, F-35, B-2. Even the new PAK FA does only use movable LERXs, not canards.
Of course it could. With the same rational, in 5 billion years, the sun could freeze. This is not a joke and I ‘m not being sarcastic. It’s a scientific theory based on data and solid arguments. BUT for the time being, we can sleep in peace: The sun is not going to freeze in the forseeable future just like canards are not going to be used in stealth or low RCS aircraft.
A further proof for that? The canards on the Su-35BM were removed. Also, a new Typhoon concept was studied with low RCS in mind. Guess what. That, too, had its canards removed. I ‘ll let you guess why.
Cheers
1) The figure for the RCS of Typhoon which you seemed to use your expertise to just laugh off, has been established.
2) The actual shape of the aircraft is not the only factor in stealth, it is also getting less important as materials and electronics advance further.
3) An aircraft doesn’t have to be put into production to judge its RCS, nor are aircraft stopped from being put into production at prototype stage just because the RCS isn’t as good as thought as you seem to suggest.
All of your argument seems to be based on opinion, not fact, even to the point where you seem to ignore facts.
Grim901Show gonads;
Step 1:
Issue a statement that every turkish fighter entering greek airspace is now going to be shot down after due warning. Radio, sign, then a warning burst, then shoot down.
Stop 2:
Do it.
Turkey isn’t going to attack greece. Their posturing is just that: posturing, to serve to the internal population.
They do it because they try to justify many of their internal policies, but they wouldn’t be able to attack Greece in any serious way.
IMO greece doesn’t have to put up with that BS.
Nic
Step outside the conflict and look in, both sides are doing exactly the same thing, posturing for the benefit of their own people. It won’t end well, look at Argentina in 1982. They tried to divert the populations attention from internal politics, it didn’t end well, it won’t here either.
Its really surprising to see some the “european” guys actually talking abt feeding people and socialism….. can a single flight of the new Russian 5th Gen a/c change people sooo much…;)
setting that aside….let me put a bit on PAK-FA
What it is —
1) It is Sukhoi’s answer to capture the light/medium & heavy fighter market with a single aircraft!
2) It has fairly beaten both F-22(air-superiority) & F-35(bomb truck) in their own two respective roles as PAK-FA have combined the two into one single airframe, without compromising on either! Brilliant!
What it is not —-
1) Its not a “stealth” a/c like F-22 or F-35, but just a “LO” a/c thats meant for combat….
2) Like all other Russian combat a/c, they are economically viable and meant for battle conditions unlike competition that is costs heaven and may require more attention than a massage for ur Girlfriend!
From one test flight you can tell the world that the PAK-FA will be better than the F22 and F35 in both their respective roles? May I borrow your crystal ball? I’d like to check some lottery numbers and stock prices.
And are you sure stealth won’t give the F-series a boost? It isn’t vital but it might make the difference. We can’t judge that yet.
Grim901Hm. I hear through the grapevine that tomorrow the German Federal Government is going to file a lawsuit against EADS because of the A400M. And the Netherlands will do they same in a couple of days.
Anyone able to confirm this?
Ha, its kicking off now.
If that is the case, the A400M may be in serious trouble unless the remaining nations decide to take the financial issues/fewer planes themselves.
Grim901So, you think it’s high time for the suggested deletion of the vertical tail and/or canards after TVC is added? Or are you talking about a whole new design but at the basis of the typhoon?
I think a modern version of Replica (more up top date stealthy airframe) would be better. They whipped up Replica pretty quick so hopefully it wouldn’t be much harder than the radical alteration of Typhoon you suggested.
Greek pilots should shoot down any turkish fighter the very second it enters greek airspace.
Nic
Oh yeah that is the best way to avoid war. You start doing that and you can’t really paint the Turks as the aggressors. Imagine what the world would have been like if NATO/USSR had taken that approach.
Well if you need a new airframe you might as well start everything over and benefit from the technology breakthroughs in avionics and sensors.
The point was to cut down on build time to meet a threat. The Typhoon avionics and sensors etc are pretty up to date as it is and are still being developed and upgraded.
Grim901the main thing to remember about this post is, that it takes a long time for europe to develop aircraft jointly.
so we are talking about a projected threat in 15-20 years time, from anyone who has an aircraft like this coming up against Euro canards.
My gut is that there will be another project in development by then, I just wondered whether the PAK-FA will provide the stimulous to kick off discussion.
As they say on Ares, we have to assume a product version would be properly stealthy, although i would suggest this design looks potentially stealthier than any Euro Canards (even though they have wonderful avionics etc).
And it is interesting to hear that Typhoon is finally an accepted measure of Frontal Stealth;)
Ahem, it takes ANYONE a long to develop modern fighter aircraft. But when there is no threat, why rush? And I think the discussion had swung more in favour off whacking current/in development gear into a stealthier airframe. That wouldn’t take 20 years.
Grim901What kind of evidence make you so sure that the RCS of PAK-FA will be about the same as Typhoon today ???
lol..who is “saying” it will be same as Typhoon?
I was going by figures given above in this thread by other members. I believe the figure similar to Typhoon was given in Russian media, but i’m only going by this thread.
Anyway, even if it wasn’t the case, if Europe wanted and needed a stealthy alternative to an F35, they could build one pretty quickly themselves. Europe (or the EU) may not be a country with one budget (yet), but if there is a common need then that wouldn’t stop them. Don’t mistake a lack of political will to fight in a country that has little relevance to them at the US’ bidding with a lack of will to defend themselves.
Grim901Well, I think that if the Western European countries really want a 5th gen. fighter at the time after 2020, they may have two choices:
Choice one: “Buy American” ~ F-35.
Choice two: Western PAK-FA ~ something like PAK-FA airframe + F136 engines + Western European AESA radar / cockpit / electronics / EWS + Integration of Meteor AAM…..
Competition often makes better offer and service. The possibility of Western PAK-FA may decrease the possibility of “Buy what Uncle Sam tells you to buy” in F-35 project.
What would be the benefit of putting those things into the PAKFA airframe, stealth? Look further up this thread and you’ll see they’re already saying it’ll be about the same as Typhoon. Apart from that you’d just be replicating the exact capability that upgrade programs will give to Typhoon, Rafale etc.
no one of the rafale/EF/gripen countries will never build a “5 gen” fighter.. it will go for a 6 gen. Meaning: no pilot…this is beond 2030…may be some neuron derivate for a-to-g in small numbers.
Well post 2025 the UK and Germany will be needing something to replace their GR4’s, so it could actually start to happen then.
Grim901It might be easier to answer this if you were to give specific countries. IMO their are no high intensity threats to NATO or the West as a whole, but some members such as the the US may well face some high intensity threats where NATO is unlikely to get involved (China/Taiwan being a possible example).
Grim901The C3 has been separated from the FSC programme for some time now, I’m not even sure its still known as C3, its probably got another completely different name by now.
Swerve quoted it somewhere above.
Grim901This forum just got a whole lot more weird. You guys are only a step away from those guys who marry their cars and do odd (read: disgusting) things to the exhaust.
Grim901Not going to add any comments to that?
Sounds pretty biased in itself, Eurofighter may well be plugging sales by using a success (who wouldn’t to be honest) but this article is no less biased.
Grim901Other elements of the British government are supporting SAAB though, notably in Brazil, through the British AESA radar. Didn’t Gordon Brown give his backing to it or something?
Odd to think the UK is actually heavily involved in 3 competing fighters.
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