Condolences to the family… and shame on Russia for letting their boys go to sea in such a decrepid tub.

Did you read the text at all? That ship was going nowhere and was in the port when the accident occurred.

“Fitted”. Like this stuff is plug and play. Yep.

Which ATE company did you mean Nadew?

Thanks for the correction 😉
It’s not the Lego product, I am aware of that, but if you (I mean the potential buyer) have the money (not spending a fortune for “tuning” a Hind but a reasonable amount of money that is acceptable for the customer) you could get a platform that is more capable than those currently fielded (take a look at the South African upgrade).
I don’t know if the Elbit has done something recently but IIRC Nadew could be speaking of IAI Tamam division, but I might be wrong again.

Was this a real need of Brazil or they are just making up for dropping the Sukhoi’s?

TJ,

I am telling you again: I was not following Venik’s site as I don’t need him to confirm something what I have witnessed.
Anyway, you’ve done a great research:rolleyes: BTW, I have never heard for that lady before. I don’t have a clue from where did you dig her up. This is the first time that I hear for that number of destroyed NATO planes. There was propaganda on the Yugoslav side also, undeniably. The people and the army had to hear something positive, although not that many people have believed that huge number of planes was hit (honestly everybody assumed that the air defense had downed several more planes, but that was it). Jamie Shea was doing the same thing on the other side.
As for the BDA on the Yugoslavian troops that were employed in Kosovo: half of those MBT were destroyed by AT mines and missiles used by the terrorists. For the ACV’s again the same thing (mostly lightly armored Lada Niva’s, Pinzgauers, TAM-110 and TAM-150).
So with those transcripts you will prove what was happening (what the NATO was claiming) during all 78 days of the campaign:confused:
All of those are from the last month of the war – or the NATO didn’t say a word for the first month and 20 days?
There is no consensus among those 3 transcripts regarding exact number of the Fulcrums in Yugoslav inventory.

I told you from the beginning that I don’t have a written proof, useful link or anything that could back me up – if that is the crime, well I am guilty.
The main point of discussion was the number of Fulcrums downed or destroyed on the ground. You have provided several links, all of them from the last month, and I still can’t see what they were (the NATO officials) saying before (or I am required to try to find some pattern in this and try to assume what they said before?).

I am sometimes wondering why do I engage into discussions like this, especially when I don’t have time nor nerves for long discussions. And I am trying to be nice while the other person is being arrogant.
The NATO propaganda convinced once the people from their countries that the war was inevitable and the only and extremely urgent option. After making that crucial step everything was much easier. And now nobody cares what has been said back then – but everybody knows what has been done and what is today the result of it.

If you want to continue like this, go on… I told you what I remember of and I really don’t know what to say to you anymore, as I will probably not.

And now let me do something in your style:

if you really want to prove me wrong, please find the transcripts of all the NATO conferences held during 78 days of the war:p

Thanks for the reply, but your attempts to drag the discussion away from its original format have been noted. Please feel free to rant away on your own in regards to the politics of the conflict.

Well, I am not ranting away, just giving my point of view. As you are presenting yours. The politics was the cause of what happened there and then – not ethnic cleansing, not humanitarian disaster or something else (as there have been never found factual proofs for either of these).

Again, I see that you like urban myths as with the ‘double the inventory MiG claims’! In relation to the Grdelica bridge.

I don’t like urban myths nor I need to read Venik’s page (as I haven’t for a long time). That (number of destroyed MiGs) is something what I noted back then in 1999. I was following the CNN and listening what Jamie Shea was saying. Now if you wanna say that I am lying ask the CNN for the tapes when they were covering the war and please prove me wrong. Maybe you’ve got your sources after the war when everything was fixed and corrected. Similar things were happening with numbers of destroyed tanks and APC’s. Those numbers presented by NATO officials were ridiculously high and when the KFOR has entered Kosovo all they found was that only 13 tanks and APC’s were destroyed during the time of entire war.
The NATO spent 78 days in playing the cat and mouse game. The political ghostwriters needed some aircraft and tank kills in order to justify all that tax payers money. It wasn’t nice for them to say everyday: “Today we have hit the hospital”, “Now we have hit the market”, “Yesterday we have hit the national TV headquarters”, “Tomorrow we are gonna hit that factory and then destroy that bridge”… Doesn’t sound nice, does it. And this is what they’ve been doing very successfully. And for those reasons they had to put some numbers of MiG’s destroyed or APC’s hit…

The problem lay in the initial presentation of the data-link video due to the format it was received in. It was presented in BDA format as would have been analysed by screeners. The fact remains that this F-15E could have been anything from fifteen up to forty miles away from the bridge. Open source material from Boeing states that some two-three miles from the target the seeker activates and the feed kicks-in relaying the video data back to the WSO’s screen. All that the WSO can see is the target that is locked-up by the AGM-130. The aim points for the AGM-130 were the bridge supports, not the train..

It all depends how the AGM-130s were deployed by the WSO. The AGM-130 is normally employed in an “indirect attack” mode, where the bomb is released at a pre-planned position and then guided to the target using data link information. In the “direct attack” mode, the AGM-130 target detector is locked on the target prior to release and the bomb guides itself to impact. The video/TV data is transmitted by the AXQ-14 datalink to the F-15E’s WSO screen.

If the WSO was manually guiding the munition, then some two to three miles from the target the guidance system places the seeker head view into his/her screen and then he/she can guide AGM-130 and lock onto a point on the designated target. If you study the video the first AGM-130’s point of aim was the first part of the bridge (looks like he/she was aiming for the first support). The second point of aim for the second AGM-130 was on the other side of the bridge. It all depends on how the weapon was employed and in which mode. Questions arise such as was the first missile manually guided and the other pre-programmed?

TJ

Thank you for the explanation how the AGM-130 works when fired by an F-15E. Anyway, in whatever mode the AGM-130 was launched the WSO has the ability to follow its final path trough his/her screen in the cockpit. AFAIK, the AGM-130 has the retargeting ability so the impact on the bridge could have been avoided (or retargeting works only in the manual mode:confused:).

Firstly the bridge was a legitimate target in conflict, regardless of the train. Bridges were targeted all over Yugoslavia. The Yugoslavs even attempted to divert their destruction by having civilians demonstrate and hold nightly vigils. The bridges were still struck as they were legitimate targets. The aim points for the AGM-130 were the bridge supports, not the train.

The bridge was a legitimate target by whom? The NATO? According to the UN it wasn’t as the UN have never approved the action.

The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia examined all the data and found the attack to have been proportionate. Unfortunate for the loss of life, but deemed not to have been a violation of the rules of conflict.

Of course that they will say it was proportionate. That tribunal was formed to convict and not to judge (but I don’t want to speak about that here and know as you will accuse me for political ranting again).

Anyway TJ, we could carry on this conversation somewhere else as this is not the right place.

Best regards

The following link has the communications between the F-15s and the E-3 AWACS from the 26th March 1999. E-3 is callsign ‘MAGIC 77’ and the F-15s are callsign ‘DIRK 1’ and ‘DIRK 2’

http://www.1stguns.de/support/mig29_kosovo_splash.mp3

TJ

What does that prove to me, TJ?
Is that audio file authentic?
Was it cut?
On the other hand maybe Major Peric was lying?
Maybe he was misinformed?

Anyway, here is the link of the mentioned documentary. I hope that you will find somebody to translate this for you. I did it just briefly.
http://www.rts.rs/page/tv/ci/story/17/%D0%A0%D0%A2%D0%A1+1/24311/%D0%9D%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE+%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B5+%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BE+%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%9B%D1%83.html

Stormeagle,

It’s no use spinning it and going off on a tangent with ‘do not be 100% sure’ scenarios. Sveto is perfectly clear in his mind that the footage that he saw was an F-15. He even makes the declaration “After all these years i am pretty sure that i know difference between MiG-29 and F-15”. I again reserve the right to challenge that.

Correct, the video and stills have been misinterpreted and used over the years. I’ve even seen people claim that the MiG wrecks were planted by NATO! Again, absolutely no concession on the sarcasm if individuals can’t interprete what they see and make such sweeping statements. You yourself have fallen into that trap with your statement reference the Battle Damage Assessment claims of MiG-29s.

You are also falling into the trap and making claims that NATO did not make. No such claims were made. Think about it? The numbers of MiG-29s in the inventory were well known and by many agencies and organisation involved. Yugoslavia was a signatory to the Vienna Document and Dayton Accord and there was no way that double the number of MiG-29s could be in the inventory.

For accuracy here are the claims made and released at the press briefings.

March 26 – 1 MiG-29 claimed destroyed in Tomahawk attack on airfield.

April 27 – 1 MiG-29 claimed destroyed on ground during air raid.

May 3 – 1 MiG-29 claimed destroyed on ground during air raid.

May 4 – 1 MiG-29 claimed destroyed by F-16s using laser-guided bombs.

May 11 – 1 MiG-29 claimed destroyed on ground using cluster bomb.

May 17 – 1 MiG-29 claimed destroyed at dispersed site with AGM-130 launched from F-15E.

June 7 – 3 MiG-29s claimed destroyed by Dutch F-16s using Paveway II LGBs

That is 9 claimed destroyed on the ground. NATO made 6 claims in air-to-air combat. You do the Arithmetic!

So, in reality there were NO ‘double the number’ of MiG-29s claimed destroyed. The M-18 were excellent and led to the MiG-29 Battle Damage Assessment figures being misconstrued.

TJ

I don’t want to go into some endless fight but I recall very well the words of Jamie Shea (who was the PR of the NATO at the time) who was mentioning downed or destroyed on the ground Fulcrums every now and then (not repetitions – but new kills). He claimed (double) more MiG’s (Fulcrums) were destroyed than Yugoslavia in reality had. I don’t have any sources for this as this was emitted through the CNN and BBC on a daily basis.

Anyway, there is something new on the engagement of Hwang on Peric and Radosavljevic. A new documentary made by the Serbian national TV about the story of 3 pilots of the Fulcrums that took part in the war. The story follows Major Arizanov (in his 18112) who was shot down over Kosovo and Major Peric (18114) and Captain Radosavljevic (18113) that were shot down over Bosnia. Both of them were saying what was happening with them since their take off until they were downed.
Major Peric said that he had an early radar failure and was being instructed by the GCI controller. After taking off they (Peric and his wingman Radosavljevic) headed north towards Hungary as the attack was expected from that side. Soon after they’ve been instructed by the GCI to change their course west towards Valjevo. They’ve followed the orders and proceeded in that direction. As they were overflying Valjevo Peric asked ground controller if they were supposed to continue on the same course by saying: “If we continue like this we will cross the line (obviously meaning on the border with Bosnia).” But he didn’t get an answer and they proceeded on the same course. Soon after passing the border he received the warning from the ground controller that the enemy was going toward them. Soon after he has seen AMRAAM trails closing on them and commanded to his wingman to do split up. Last words of Captain Radosavljevic that he heard were: “I am going to the clouds.” After he evaded one AMRAAM he was hit by another. He tried to gain control of his aircraft but he failed. Then he ejected and was later picked up by the Serbian peasants.
There was a comic situation that happened to him when he was caught by the peasants. When asked whose pilot he was, he answered: “Ours. Serbian.” And then suspicious peasants yelled: “Look at this ******, he even learned Serbian!”:D
Anyway, he claimed that he did not fire any missile (as his radar was out of function). He was trying to approach close where he would be able to engage with his heat-seeking Archers and in the meantime he was already engaged by Captain Hwang. He was trying to keep the communication on its minimum as the only time he used the radio com was when he had asked the ground controller of their course and in other occasion to say to Radosavljevic that they were attacked. Radosavljevic was hit just behind the cockpit and didn’t have time to eject.
At the end of the documentary Peric seemed disappointed when he found out that the pilot of the F-15 that had shot them down said: “I hope that they are both (pilots) inside.”