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slipperysam

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  • in reply to: Dornier's light fighter design for India in 1984 #2295631
    slipperysam
    Participant

    Not to mention 2D nozzles…

    I vagely remember reading about this!!

    in reply to: Why is NH-90 and Tigre failures? #2319371
    slipperysam
    Participant

    Going from memory, with regards to the Australian complaints:

    Apparently there are issues with the cabin seats (too weak?)
    You cant have a door gunner! (well ok yes you can, but then you cant have people entering and exiting the aircraft at the same time, unlike the Blackhawk which has a dedicated door gunners position).
    Inflight engine failure last year which grounded the fleet.

    The Tiger I believe was limited to daytime flying due to navigational issues (?)
    though am unsure if its been resolved.

    All other issues with delays in delivery/ training etc are out of the scope of things I believe.

    in reply to: JCA (C-27J) stripped from army #2347358
    slipperysam
    Participant

    With regards to the C-27 and the RAAF, cant say who said it…or where I heard it, but very recently was told that the C-27 purchase is no longer an “if we buy them”, but its now “when do we buy them”…

    Its always been mooted that the C-27 is the preferred choice by RAAF and all I keep hearing now is “when” we get them type comments.

    in reply to: UK considers Rafale and F-18 as 'interim aircraft' #2356165
    slipperysam
    Participant

    What does surprise me is the fact people are still waving the F35 flag when a report comes out saying the F35 cant land on a carrier because the tail hook is too close to the main gear and everyone here just whinges on and on about the F18 being a waste of money?!?!?

    One would assume that if a carrier aircraft cant land on a carrier and a major redesign is needed thereby increasing costs, that the SMART thing to do is to look at alternatives instead of wasting BILLIONS on a project which is appearing not to be “as good as once thought”.

    in reply to: Here we go more cuts #2360894
    slipperysam
    Participant

    I would think Labour is the problem with the UK. It’s the US equivalent to progressives. Inch your way closer to communism with each passing year.

    oh yea of course thats it… communism… nothing to do with mismangement and bad business practises which blows billions of dollars of tax payers money.

    in reply to: Here we go more cuts #2361034
    slipperysam
    Participant

    For years the RAAF has been bleating “Do more with less”…

    The problem in defence (like most public servants and their departments) is the wastage. Too many times a lot of billion dollar projects run over budget, over time and dont work.

    Governments can go “ooh look we cut the budget” and the average clueless voter will either scream about it or think its a vote grabber.

    Sadly in reality wastage will just keep occuring and then the government wonders why the dept (defence or otherwise) cant function properly.

    When was the last time in the USA/UK/Australia has ANYONE ever heard of people being sacked? charged with fraud? demoted? because of mismanagement?

    I would say rarely? never?

    Defence is a sacred cash cow and always will be…. because its been allowed to develop into a BUSINESS. Look at how much of defence is “outsourced” these days.

    in reply to: Aftermarket Canards #2367257
    slipperysam
    Participant

    They put them on McD YF-4E also I think a mod of the Cessna 172 then Wren had them also.

    Chris

    That WREN stol conversion was available on the C182… dont think it was ever done for the C172.

    Burt Rutan also loved cannards in his designs…

    The Italian Piaggio Avanti….

    Beechcraft starship (all but gone now???)

    in reply to: Aftermarket Canards #2367261
    slipperysam
    Participant

    Today I learnt that some Mirage III variants were fitted with fixed canards.

    I’m no aerodynamicist but I’m surprised that this sort of thing – fitting an existing airframe design with canards – actually works. Obviously the poster-child for this canards-as-optional-extra thing is the Su-30, but as I recall there was also an F-15 technology demonstrator with canards. Have there been any other instances of the practice, successful or otherwise?

    The F-15s canards were not fixed…. Rafale, Gripen, Typhoon and the SU30 series all use moveable cannards.

    The F-16 AFTI demonstrator also had moveable canards (of sorts) under the air intake.

    Plenty of the Mirage Deltas as far back the 1980s were retro fitted with fixed canards. The Mirage 4000 also came equipped with them, but never went ahead to production.

    in reply to: Impressive Weapons Load 2 (again) #2368304
    slipperysam
    Participant

    Thread tittle is “Impressive weapons loads”… please stop filling this thread with discussions about what can or cant be carried… blah blah blah!!

    Less talk, more photos…. beginning to get rather dull.

    in reply to: Patriot missiles bound for China! #1795052
    slipperysam
    Participant

    Finland Seizes Ship With Patriot Missiles and Explosives Bound For China

    Posted on December 22, 2011 at 10:23am by Buck Sexton Buck Sexton
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    (The Blaze/AP)– Finnish authorities on Wednesday impounded 160 tons of explosives and 69 surface-to-air missiles found on a British-flagged cargo ship ultimately destined for Shanghai, China, officials said.

    The M/S Thor Liberty sailed from the north German port of Emden on Dec. 13 and two days later docked in Kotka, southern Finland, to pick up a cargo of anchor chains, Finnish Customs spokesman Petri Lounatmaa said.

    “We have impounded the explosives and missiles and asked the Defense Ministry to transport and store them,” Lounatmaa said. “At this stage we don’t know where it was loaded on the ship or if the Thor Liberty planned a drop before its port of destination in China.”

    Investigating officers remain uncertain of the origin of the Patriot missiles or who was supposed to receive them. The ship’s two most senior officers were being interrogated as of Thursday.

    According to CBS News, however, a Detective Chief Superintendent in Finland’s Nation Bureau of Investigation, said he didn’t believe the weapons are connected to terrorism., saying “As far as we can make out the shipment was legal,” said Virtanen. “They were not trying to smuggle the missiles… they are destined for South Korea.”

    Dock workers found the explosives — picric acid — badly stored on open pallets instead of in closed containers. They alerted inspectors who found the missiles in containers marked as holding fireworks.

    Interior Minister Paivi Rasanen said she had not heard of a similar case.

    “Of course, there are legal transports of weapons or defense material (through Finland) but in this case the cargo was marked as containing fireworks,” Rasanen told national broadcaster YLE TV. “That is quite unusual.”

    Lounatmaa said customs officials and police have launched a joint investigation into a possible breach of Finnish export and weapons trading laws

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/finland-seizes-patriot-missile-and-explosives-laden-ship-bound-for-china/

    in reply to: Patriot missiles bound for China! #1795059
    slipperysam
    Participant

    Found this article elsewhere…

    –German defense ministry confirms missiles sent from Germany

    –Germany says the sale to South Korea is legal and above-board

    By Arild Moen

    Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

    FRANKFURT (Dow Jones)–A German defense ministry spokesman on Thursday confirmed that a shipment of missiles discovered in Finland were sent from Germany and were enroute to South Korea.

    “These missiles are from German military stockpiles and were sold entirely legally with all requisite legal and customs documentation,” the spokesman said.

    The Patriot missiles were bound for South Korea, and the sale was part of a previous standing agreement, he added.

    Earlier Thursday, Finland’s National Bureau of Investigation said they had detained two people suspected of illegal transit shipping of weaponry after customs officials found what they described as 69 Patriot surface-to-air missiles and about 160 tons of explosives aboard Danish-owned MS Thor Liberty bound for South Korea.

    Finnish custom officials on Wednesday seized the cargo ship in the harbor of Kotka, about 120 kilometers East of Helsinki, as the weaponry shipment lacked the required permit from Finland’s Ministry of Defense.

    “We have been questioning the whole crew since yesterday and have detained two members of the crew,” detective superintendent Timo Virtanen of the NBI told Dow Jones Newswires.

    Denmark-based Thorco Shipping A/S, which owns MS Thor Liberty, wasn’t immediately available for comment.

    According to MarineTraffic.com, a service which shows global marine traffic by Automatic Identification System-transponders installed on ships, MS Thor Liberty’s last known port was Rendsburg in Germany.

    “Yes, we are aware of this internet service but it takes a bit longer time to check this kind of information with authorities,” Virtanen said.

    in reply to: F-35A for Japan #2302412
    slipperysam
    Participant

    http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post.aspx?post=4ed50943-e070-4824-a075-b79aef24b8ed

    Slowing F-35 deliveries could trim Lockheed valuation
    With the fighter jet eventually expected to account for 20% of revenue, any further production delays will push up the company’s aeronautics backlog and reduce earnings
    By Trefis on Thu, Dec 15, 2011 2:46 PM

    Highlighting the structural glitches which have plagued the program, Venlet told AOL Defense that tempering production rates may now be necessary. His remarks draw into question Lockheed’s “concurrency strategy,” which seeks to maximize unit production before test flights are completed with a view to retrofitting any necessary repairs. If production rates now drop, the change in backlog could have a modest impact on our stock price valuation. Lockheed competes with companies such as Boeing (BA +3.25%).

    See our full analysis for Lockheed Martin here

    Concurrency rushes through economies of scale

    Lockheed is the Pentagon’s No. 1 contractor by sales, with the Department of Defense planning to purchase more than 2,440 F-35s at a cost of $382.5 billion. In order to unleash economies of scale as quickly as possible, Lockheed’s strategy has been to ramp production early on in the program and incorporate design changes as needed during testing.

    Venlet now describes this approach as a fundamental miscalculation, arguing that the cost burden of retrospectively fixing multiple design flaws on individual units is excessive. He says that while most of the glitches are minor and none of them relate to safety or performance issues, repairs are nonetheless costlier to implement post-assembly. The Pentagon has acted on such concerns twice before, most recently by scaling back its upcoming F-35 production batch from 42 to 30 aircraft.

    Slowdown hits backlog

    With the F-35 eventually expected to account for 20% of Lockheed’s revenue, any further production delays will push up the company’s aeronautics backlog and in turn reduce its earnings. Drag the trend-line below to see how a backlog of $1.43 billion by 2018 compared with our current forecast of zero has the effect of trimming about 3% off our Trefis price estimate of $98.

    Lockheed US Aeronautics Change in Backlog

    While a rising backlog is bad news for investors, any negativity should be placed in the context of the Pentagon’s ongoing support for Lockheed. This year the company’s aeronautics share of total DOD, NASA and Homeland Security Contracts will reach 2.86%, and its commitment to the F-35 program should see that continue, rising to 3.46% by 2014. Furthermore, 750 units of the F-35 will be sold to 11 partner countries, giving a welcome boost to Lockheed’s international aeronautics division.

    So we have a number of issues which need fixing but we will just keep building them… and then recall the aircraft to fix them at a later date!
    What a marvelous idea!!

    in reply to: F-35A for Japan #2302414
    slipperysam
    Participant

    Never ceases to amaze me how a lot of people just keep waving the F35 flag saying what a wonderful product it is…. when clearly alarm bells are ringing everywhere at the ever increasing delays, price increases and design issues.

    Just wonder if you guys have shares in LM ??

    News article 5days prior to Japans announcment:

    http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/u-s-faces-more-headaches-with-f-35-japan-delays-announcement

    More headaches with F-35; Japan delays announcement

    National Dec. 15, 2011 – 04:00PM JST ( 37 )
    More headaches with F-35; Japan delays announcement The F-35 is the most expensive weapons program in Pentagon history. AFP

    WASHINGTON —

    The U.S. military’s F-35 fighter program, already suffering repeated delays, faces a spate of technical problems that the Pentagon expects will slow the pace of production, officials said Wednesday.

    The news comes as the Japanese government decided to postpone a formal announcement on its choice of the $6 billion F-35 as its next-generation mainstay fighter for its Air Self-Defense Force until next week. The government had originally intended to make the announcement on Friday at the Security Council of Japan, chaired by Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda.

    The Defense Ministry indicated this week that it had “agreed in principle” to purchase 40 F-35s made by Lockheed Martin to replace its aging fleet of F-4 jets over two rivals, the Boeing-made F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Eurofighter Typhoon.

    Japan initially aimed to acquire the F-22 stealth fighter to renew its fleet, but U.S. law prohibits exports of the jet with the United States having said it would halt production of the model.

    The F-35, the most expensive weapons program in Pentagon history, has been plagued by cost overruns and technical delays.

    The latest troubling revelations for the F-35—the most expensive weapons program in history—emerged from a leaked internal Pentagon report that outlines an array of problems exposed by flight tests.

    The internal report, posted Tuesday on the independent website Project on Government Oversight, listed five engineering problems “where major consequence issues have been identified” but not yet solved.

    The weak points included the pilot’s helmet mounted display which has performed poorly, a fuel dump system that leaves fuel on the plane’s surface, the plane’s integrated power system that has raised safety concerns, and the arresting hook landing gear for the aircraft carrier version of the plane. The hook has failed to work properly in test landings on carriers.

    Three other engineering issues also carried the potential to turn into major problems, it said, including airframe fatigue and buffeting or vibration.

    The report, dubbed a “Quick Look Review” of the F-35 program, said the technical challenges generated “a lack of confidence in the design stability” of the aircraft, which has already started production.

    As a result, the review calls for “serious reconsideration of procurement and production planning,” it said.

    A spokesman for the Joint Strike Fighter program confirmed that managers were looking at scaling back the pace of production to allow time to fix the technical problems that had emerged.

    “That’s one way to help reduce concurrency (costs) is to slow that (production) down,” spokesman Joe DellaVedova told AFP.

    But he did not provide details, saying the numbers would depend on the outcome of negotiations with Lockheed Martin, and the proposed defense budget for 2013.

    Pentagon officials use the word “concurrency” to describe the F-35 Lightning II program’s approach, which sought to launch manufacturing much earlier and in parallel with test flights.

    The assumption was that sophisticated simulation technology would preclude the need for dramatic changes in the plane’s design and that production could be scheduled much earlier than in previous aircraft programs.

    But the authors of the review said that assumption proved overly optimistic.

    Winslow Wheeler, an outspoken skeptic of Pentagon spending and the F-35 project, said the latest technical problems suggested the whole fighter program should be scrapped.

    “The new revelations are numerous and significant enough to call into question whether F-35 production should be suspended—if not terminated—even in the minds of today’s senior managers in the Pentagon,” said Wheeler from the Center for Defense Information.

    Sen John McCain, speaking last week, called on the government to negotiate tough terms with Lockheed for the next tranche of fighters and expressed disgust with the program’s cost overruns and engineering setbacks.

    “In a nutshell, the JSF program has been both a scandal and a tragedy,” McCain said.

    The Joint Strike Fighter is supposed to form the backbone of the future U.S. air fleet and 11 other allied countries have joined the project.

    Defense officials have struggled to keep costs under control, with each plane’s price tag doubling in real terms over the past decade. The price of each plane is roughly at $113 million in fiscal year 2011 dollars and the program’s overall cost has jumped to about $385 billion.

    © 2011 AFP

    http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/145533-pentagon-report-slams-f-35-usaf-delays-pilot-training.html

    Pentagon Report Slams
    F-35, USAF Delays Pilot Training

    The Pentagon’s schedule for buying F- 35 jets from Lockheed Martin Corp. should be given “serious reconsideration” and possibly slowed because the aircraft’s design has proven more unstable during testing than anticipated, according to a special internal report.

    Some things have come into sharper focus about the state of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program in the wake of both Vice Adm. David Venlet’s interview with AOL Defense and a story Monday by Tony Capaccio of Bloomberg News.

    The first is that in almost 10 years of development, and despite a reportedly strong period of successful flight testing, is that the airplanes are apparently still far from ready for even really challenging testing. With 90-plus F-35s of the three variants — really very different planes — already built or in production, much, much more development and testing remains and, we know now, re-work too.

    The much-touted ability of Lockheed Martin and its key partners to concurrently design, develop and build production aircraft was, to put it kindly, way, way oversold. Venlet said as much in his interview last week. (…/…)

    Capaccio’s story, based on an internal Pentagon document of the kind he has a knack for getting his hands on, sheds even more light.

    In one recent month, apparently October, there were 725 pending design “change requests,” according to the Bloomberg piece. “These figures are indicative of the large volume of change on this program and low design maturity,” it said. (…/…)

    One of the big problems is with the tail hook arresting gear mechanism on the F-35C that is supposed to bring the planes to a screeching halt in landings aboard Navy carriers.

    The tail hook mechanism failed all eight landing attempts in tests and requires significant and, apparently, challenging redesign of the system and perhaps the aircraft structure itself. “If this change is not successful there is risk for significant airframe structures redesign and or impacts to overall” radar signature, the report said.

    The U.S. Air Force has apparently also has come to the conclusion it’s a little too early to let anyone but its test pilots fly the F-35. US Air Force Secretary Michael Donley has agreed with Director of Operational Testing Michael Gilmore that the F-35 is not ready to begin pilot training at Eglin Air Force Base in Fla.

    in reply to: All Qantas flights grounded. #562530
    slipperysam
    Participant

    The push to destroy Qantas was revealed a few months ago:

    This confirms what others have been saying for a while about how Qantas is subsidising Jetstar to its own detriment and to circumvent the Qantas Sale Act.
    For those who haven’t seen it, Senator Xenophon’s speech of 23rd Aug is reproduced below.

    Senator XENOPHON (South Australia) (19:37): I rise to speak tonight on an issue that is close to the hearts of many Australians, and that is the future of our national carrier, Qantas. At 90, Qantas is the world’s oldest continuously running airline. It is an iconic Australian company. Its story is woven into the story of Australia and Australians have long taken pride in the service and safety standards provided by our national carrier. Who didn’t feel a little proud when Dustin Hoffman uttered the immortal line in Rain Man, ‘Qantas never crashed’?

    While it is true that Qantas never crashes, the sad reality is that Qantas is being deliberately trashed by management in the pursuit of short-term profits and at the expense of its workers and passengers. For a long time, Qantas management has been pushing the line that Qantas international is losing money and that Jetstar is profitable. Tonight, it is imperative to expose those claims for the misinformation they are. The reality is that Qantas has long been used to subsidise Jetstar in order to make Jetstar look profitable and Qantas look like a burden. In a moment, I will provide detailed allegations of cost-shifting that I have sourced from within the Qantas Group, and when you know the facts you quickly see a pattern. When there is a cost to be paid, Qantas pays it, and when there is a profit to be made, Jetstar makes it.

    But first we need to ask ourselves: why? Why would management want Qantas to look unprofitable? Why would they want to hide the cost of a competing brand within their group, namely Jetstar, in amongst the costs faced by Qantas?

    To understand that, you need to go back to the days when Qantas was being privatised. When Qantas was privatised the Qantas Sale Act 1992 imposed a number of conditions, which in turn created a number of problems for any management group that wanted to flog off parts of the business. Basically, Qantas has to maintain its principal place of operations here in Australia, but that does not stop management selling any subsidiaries, which brings us to Jetstar.

    Qantas has systematically built up the low-cost carrier at the expense of the parent company. I have been provided with a significant number of examples where costs which should have been billed back to Jetstar have in fact been paid for by Qantas. These are practices that I believe Qantas and Jetstar management need to explain. For example, when Jetstar took over the Cairns-Darwin-Singapore route, replacing Qantas flights, a deal was struck that required Qantas to provide Jetstar with $6 million a year in revenue. Why? Why would one part of the business give up a profitable route like that and then be asked to pay for the privilege? Then there are other subsidies when it comes to freight. On every sector Jetstar operates an A330, Qantas pays $6,200 to $6,400 for freight space regardless of actual uplift. When you do the calculations, this turns out to be a small fortune. Based on 82 departures a week, that is nearly half-a-million dollars a week or $25∏ million a year.

    Then there are the arrangements within the airport gates. In Melbourne, for example, my information from inside the Qantas group is that Jetstar does not pay for any gates, but instead Qantas domestic is charged for the gates. My question for Qantas management is simple: are these arrangements replicated right around Australia and why is Qantas paying Jetstar’s bills? Why does Qantas lease five check-in counters at Sydney Terminal 2, only to let Jetstar use one for free? It has been reported to me that there are other areas where Jetstar’s costs magically become Qantas’s costs. For example, Jetstar does not have a treasury department and has only one person in government affairs. I am told Qantas’s legal department also does free work for Jetstar.

    Then there is the area of disruption handling where flights are cancelled and people need to be rebooked. Here, insiders tell me, Qantas handles all rebookings and the traffic is all one way. It is extremely rare for a Qantas passenger to be rebooked on a Jetstar flight, but Jetstar passengers are regularly rebooked onto Qantas flights. I am informed that Jetstar never pays Qantas for the cost of those rebooked passengers and yet Jetstar gets to keep the revenue from the original bookings. This, I am told, is worth millions of dollars every year. So Jetstar gets the profit while Qantas bears the costs of carriage. It has also been reported to me that when Qantas provides an aircraft to Jetstar to cover an unserviceable plane, Jetstar does not pay for the use of this plane.

    Yet another example relates to the Qantas Club. Jetstar passengers can and do use the Qantas Club but Jetstar does not pay for the cost of any of this. So is Qantas really losing money? Or is it profitable but simply losing money on paper because it is carrying so many costs incurred by Jetstar? We have been told by Qantas management that the changes that will effectively gut Qantas are necessary because Qantas international is losing money but, given the inside information I have just detailed, I would argue those claims need to be reassessed.

    Indeed, given these extensive allegations of hidden costs, it would be foolish to take management’s word that Qantas international is losing money. So why would Qantas want to make it look like Qantas international is losing money? Remember the failed 2007 private equity bid by the Allco Finance Group. It was rejected by shareholders, and thank goodness it was, for I am told that what we are seeing now is effectively a strategy of private equity sell-off by stealth.

    Here is how it works. You have to keep Qantas flying to avoid breaching the Qantas Sale Act but that does not stop you from moving assets out of Qantas and putting them into an airline that you own but that is not controlled by the Qantas Sale Act. Then you work the figures to make it appear as though the international arm of Qantas is losing money. You use this to justify the slashing of jobs, maintenance standards and employment of foreign crews and, ultimately, the creation of an entirely new airlines to be based in Asia and which will not be called Qantas. The end result? Technically Qantas would still exist but it would end up a shell of its former self and the Qantas Group would end up with all these subsidiaries it can base overseas using poorly paid foreign crews with engineering and safety standards that do not match Australian standards. In time, if the Qantas Group wants to make a buck, they can flog these subsidiaries off for a tidy profit. Qantas management could pay the National Boys Choir and the Australian Girls’ Choir to run to the desert and sing about still calling Australia home, but people would not buy it. It is not just about feeling good about our national carrier—in times of trouble our national carrier plays a key strategic role. In an international emergency, in a time of war, a national carrier is required to freight resources and people around the country and around the world. Qantas also operates Qantas Defence Services, which conducts work for the RAAF. If Qantas is allowed to wither, who will meet these strategic needs?

    I pay tribute to the 35,000 employees of the Qantas Group. At the forefront of the fight against the strategy of Qantas management have been the Qantas pilots, to whom millions of Australians have literally entrusted their lives. The Australian and International Pilots Association sees Qantas management strategy as a race to the bottom when it comes to service and safety. On 8 November last year, QF32 experienced a serious malfunction with the explosion of an engine on an A380 aircraft. In the wrong hands, that plane could have crashed. But it did not, in large part because the Qantas flight crew had been trained to exemplary world-class standards and knew how to cope with such a terrifying reality. I am deeply concerned that what is being pursued may well cause training levels to fall and that as a result safety standards in the Qantas Group may fall as well. AIPA pilots and the licensed aircraft engineers are not fighting for themselves; they are fighting for the Australian public. That is why I am deeply concerned about any action Qantas management may be considering taking against pilots who speak out in the public interest.

    A lot of claims have been made about the financial state of Qantas international but given the information I have presented tonight, which has come from within the Qantas Group, I believe these claims by management are crying out for further serious forensic investigation. Qantas should not be allowed to face death by a thousand cuts—job cuts, route cuts, quality cuts, engineering cuts, wage cuts. None of this is acceptable and it must all be resisted for the sake of the pilots, the crews, the passengers and ultimately the future of our national carrier.

    in reply to: All Qantas flights grounded. #562535
    slipperysam
    Participant

    Furious passengers in major cities around the world have vowed never to fly with Qantas again after being left stranded by the airline’s unprecedented grounding.

    Disgruntled travellers in London, New York, Bangkok, Singapore, Hong Kong, Frankfurt and countless other cities are desperately trying to make alternative arrangements after Qantas grounded its entire fleet of planes, leaving 80,000 passengers worldwide in limbo.

    The airline announced the grounding of all domestic and international flights on Saturday in response to a protracted industrial dispute with employees.

    The unions expressed outrage at the airline’s annual general meeting on Friday that shareholders had voted to give Qantas CEO Alan Joyce a 71 per cent pay rise at the meeting while the protracted industrial disputes with pilots, engineers and baggage handlers continued.
    Qantas grounding at a glance

    All domestic and international flights grounded
    Lockout of staff will commence Monday 8.00pm
    At least 80,000 passengers affected worldwide
    108 aircraft grounded in 22 airports around the globe
    Qantas is organising alternative flights and accommodation for stranded passengers, and refunds for people yet to travel.

    The Federal Government was only informed of Qantas’ plan hours before it was announced.
    Fair Work Australia adjourns hearing into dispute until 2pm Sunday
    Business, tourism sectors fear major impact
    Hotline for affected Qantas passengers: 13 13 13
    Qantas updating passengers via its website, Facebook and Twitter
    QantasLink and Jetstar will continue to operate flights

    Mr Joyce told AM it was the unions’ actions that triggered his decision to ground all Qantas flights.

    “They walked out of the meeting. They said that they were annoyed that the shareholders… talked about escalating,” he said.

    “That was the threshold moment that changed everything and it was only after the AGM that we saw that.

    “I told the board I had made the decision then to take the only action available to use and that was to lock out the members responsible for the industrial action.”

    An emergency Fair Work Australia hearing into the Qantas dispute, convened late last night, was adjourned until 2pm AEDT today.

    Hundreds of passengers are stranded at the world’s busiest international airport, Heathrow, after eight flights were cancelled this weekend.

    QF32 was the first of three flights due out of Heathrow on Saturday (local time), but another two in Frankfurt are also on hold.
    Audio: Alan Joyce speaks with business editor Peter Ryan (AM)

    About 1,500 travellers at Heathrow’s Terminal 3 are scrambling to find alternative flights home or accommodation, and say Qantas is providing very little help.

    Passenger Rachel Smith described “chaos” at the Qantas check-in area in an email to ABC News Online.

    “Luckily my travel dates are reasonably flexible but I do have work commitments in Sydney, including a business related stopover in Singapore, and re-booking with another airline has not been easy,” she wrote.

    “I’m now flying with Singapore Airlines in a few days and back at my flat in London to enjoy the rest of the weekend.

    I have been a loyal gold frequent flyer for some years now and will never fly Qantas again. Enough is enough.
    Qantas passenger Mark Thomson

    “What about all the other poor people not in my position who are stranded in airports around the world? I travel regularly between London and Sydney but won’t be flying with Qantas again.”

    British Airways flights between the UK and Australia are not expected to be disrupted, but passengers booked on code share flights, such as BA services operated by Qantas, will be affected.

    Qantas’ other Europe hub, Frankfurt, is also affected. Mark Thomson was set to return to Brisbane from Berlin, and told ABC News Online the shutdown means he will fly with other airlines in future.
    Audio: Anger and distress at Sydney airport (AM)

    “I have spent more than 60 minutes on hold to Qantas call centre with no success and can’t get through to the afterhours number of my travel agent,” he wrote.

    “I have been a loyal gold frequent flyer for some years now and will never fly Qantas again. Enough is enough.”

    Entrepreneur and aviation expert Dick Smith says the union dispute and ensuing chaos is a result of passengers’ high demand for low international airfares.

    “That’s been forced on the workers by us Australians, we’re the ones who decided that we wanted to go with very low airfares,” he said.

    “An Australian business can’t compete. You cannot pay Australian wages if you want globalised prices for things. When it comes to flying overseas, we all want low prices.

    “I do have great sympathy for the pilots. Politicians protect their wages – you can’t bring in cheap Chinese politicians.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-30/irate-passengers-vow-to-abandon-qantas/3608640

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