But F-35 was subsequently offered to the RAAF. So it wasn’t on the Air 6000 shortlist – does that just meant that air 6000 was launched prematurely?

So EF or Rafael would have been an effective F-111 replacement??????? What does either offer in a strike role that Block II F-18F doesn’t? Non-AESA MSA radar perhaps? 😀

Are you capable of reading what has been said over and over???
IT WAS NOT OFFERED TO AUSTRALIA.
WE BOUGHT INTO THE PROJECT WHILE AIR6000 WAS IN PROGRESS
How many times does this have to be repeated??

Well, you must be the spin doctor supreme. As the RAAF was and has been deeply involved with the JSF Program from the start. You make it sound like the Australian Goverment picked the F-35 without the RAAF knowledge or even consent!!!!

Yet another person who cant read what has been said….
WE WERE NOT INVOLVED IN THE F-35 PROGRAM FROM THE START.
WE WERE NOT OFFERED THE AIRCRAFT.
Lockheed DID NOT ENTER THE AIR6000 competition.

Spin Dr?? Again your not capable of allowing the facts to even sway your mind from you believe you know, when in fact you clearly know nothing about the selection process.

Here it is again…

October 2001….

Lockheed Martin wins $19Billion JSF Contract…
… The UK has signed an agreement to participate in the SDD phase, having become a full level 1 collaborative partner in the programme in 1995.
Agreement with additional countries for participation in the SDD phase are in progress. Canada, Denmark, Italy, the Netherlands and Norway have all joined the programme as co-operative partners, whilst Israel, Singapore and Turkey are foreign military sales participants for this phase…

Australia was NEVER involved from the start…. We are a 3rd LEVEL PARTNER.
We bought into the program in 2002.
The RAAF HAD LITTLE, TO NO SAY IN THE MATTER.
PUBLIC SERVANTS MADE THE CHOICE for them.
It was a BUSINESS DEAL based on politics.

If you stand back a little from that statement it sounds like Government saved the RAAF from an essentially superfluous contest, that if concluded could have locked Australia into operating a 1990’s technology fighter for the next 25 years.

Once the JSF as clearly defined, why would Aus want to buy a fleet of semi-mature EFs of Rafaels that one day might provide the all round capability that the RAAF needs and the F-35 provides?
3rd January 2009 03:17

Is not ANYONE CAPABLE OF seeing what is being said????
Lets SPELL IT OUT….

The F-35 WAS NOT OFFERED TO THE RAAF….
The F-35 was not on the Air6000 shortlist…..
There was only ONE prototype in the air at the time…
(semi mature rafale??? and the F-35 is MATURE??? )
The F-35 is going to replace the F-111, a role IT IS NOT SUITED FOR…
The government should NOT be making choices for what it thinks the RAAF needs!
Governments are there to govern…. not RULE
The government of the day then decided without consultation that 24 Super Hornets will be needed as a “stop gap” because the F-111s will be retired well before we receive the F-35. What wonderful forward planning?

Again the continual flag waving for the F-35 on this thread and in this forum is beyond a joke…. a debate on here simply goes round and round as those so much in love with the aircraft keep on and on about its wonderful attributes. Do you guys get paid by the thread?

There fact remains the government of the day lied and went behind the backs of everyone…. but this doesnt matter a damn to some does it?

Personally, I do have a inability to accept what is being said……….Especially, with sources like 60 mins for example! As if I did the F-16 and M-1 Abrams Tank Programs would be a total failure.

Both of which have been two of the most successful Military Programs in “HISTORY”.

Sorry, you condemn what you don’t understand………..:(

Hello… but sorry to inform you… I AM NOT FROM AMERICA. Therefor the 60Mintues program i referring too is 60Minutes AUSTRALIA. Ever heard of 4 Corners? the 7.30 report? the ABC ??

Originally Posted by d’clacy
The F35 was never one of the aircraft under consideration by the RAAF. There were four aircraft being considered, Su30, Eurofighter, F15E, and Rafaele. End of story. Had we of chosen any one of them we would have them by now. We would never have needed to buy 24 F18E-Fs for a start.

Originally Posted by Scooter
Would you like to back up that claim with a source………
1st January 2009 10:49

There mere fact that someone from the country of origin is telling you this informatation because they simply know what is going on in their country is seemingly not good enough for you…

Quote:
Originally Posted by CommanderJB
You’re quite right – they were recommending it to Brendan Nelson in 2006 when he was given the choice to continue with the JSF or not. That was four years after Robert Hill had signed on the dotted line for our $100m contribution to the development programme.

Originally Posted by Scooter
Well, were is your quote from Robert Hill that dates back to 2002………
31st December 2008 12:50

See my above….. and yet again.. the mere fact that someone is telling your WRONG because they are informed about what their own previous (Australian)governement has done.

Again… you simply can not handle the fact that some of us are aware of how poorly the F-35 was “selected” (even though we havent signed on the dotted line for ANY aircraft, nor even finalised the numbers).

Again… various retired AVMs have spoken out agaisnt the way the AIR6000 project was canned and the F-35 “selected”

Nov 16th 1999….

During a presentation to the “Control of the Air” conference in Canberra, Sukhoi’s CEO, Dr. Mikhail Siminov, registered its interest in having its aircraft considered as a serious contender for the Air 6000 project. Air 6000 is the project to replace the RAAFs fleet of 71 F/A-18A/Bs when they are phased out in 2012-2015 and the 21 F-111Cs and 14 F-111Gs when they retire in about 2030.

Simonov’s presentation offered the Su-30MK, Su-32 or Su-35.

Air 6000 Phase 1, now underway, is a Capability Definition Study, broadly examining options, including scope for a single type to replace both the F/A-18 and F-111, or other alternatives for future strike capability…..

A delegation from Rosvoorouzhenie and Russian industries, including KNAAPO, orginally made a closed door sales proposal to the Australian DoD in 1998, offering a mixed fleet of Sukhoi fightersat a similier cost to upgrading the exsisting F/A-18 and F-111 fleet.

After the more recent conference, a further presentation to the Air 6000 project team on the performance and operational management of Sukhoi aircraft was made at the Defence Force Acadamy on November 18. This was followed the next day by a presentation to the Defence Science and Technology Organisation (DTSO) in Melbourne on the combat capabilities of the aircraft and their design philosophy.

On the same day similier presentations were made to the DTSO by “ALL” the other AIR 6000 contenders, comprising Boeing (F/AE/F), British Aerospace (Eurofighter Typhoon and Lockheed Martin (F-22A)

Jan 2001….

Australia’s long-awaited Defence White Paper, the first since 1994, was formally tabled in Parliament on December 6th by the Prime Minister the Hon John Howard…….

Major provision will be made for the acquistion of a new combat aircraft to replace the 81 F/A-18s, due to reach their end of service life between 2012 and 2015, and potenially replace the F-111.

Provision has been made for the aquisition of up to 100 new combat aircraft to replace the two types…..

October 2001….

Lockheed Martin wins $19Billion JSF Contract…
… The UK has signed an agreement to participate in the SDD phase, having become a full level 1 collaborative partner in the programme in 1995.
Agreement with additional countries for participation in the SDD phase are in progress. Canada, Denmark, Italy, the Netherlands and Norway have all joined the programme as co-operative partners, whilst Israel, Singapore and Turkey are foreign military sales participants for this phase…

(NOTE: NO MENTION OF AUSTRALIA)

June 2002…

Australian defence Minister Robert Hill announced on June 27th that it too is to negotiate with the US to join the SDD phase of the JSF, coming in with $150Million (US) “contibution” as a level 3 partner.

The RAAF’s Project Air 6000 is seeking a replacement for the RAAF’s F/A-18 Hornets in the 2012-2015 timeframe and for its F-111s between 2015-2020, although a purchase decision is not expected until around 2006.

Hill noted however at the press conference announcing the decicion that “I think it would be unfair to competitors to hold out a carrot that I dont think is really there” and that “This is the aircraft for us in the future”.

This effectively rules out any alternatives options, which had included the Boeing F/A-18E/F, Dassault Rafale and Euro Fighter Typhoon.

…but Hill’s confirmation that there was effectively no longer and competition came as a great surprise.

Oct 2002….

Australia confirmed on October 23 that it has finalised terms for joining the US joint strike fighter programme, to which it will commit $150MILLION (US) over ten years following its decision to join the programme in June.

Defence Minister Robert Hill said it had taken 4months of negotiation with Washington before the Australian cabinet was able to approve signature of a contract, which took place on Oct30th during the annual US-Australia ministerial meeting, AUSMIN, in Washington……

July 2005……

Whilst announcing on May 16th that Australia will join the next phase of the Joint Strike Fighter programme, Australian Defence Minister Robert Hill also revealed that a government decision on the JSF purchases for the RAAF will not now be made until 2008.

This is 2 years later then had previously been expected and is dependant on JSF achieving all milestones that have been set for it by the time the purchase decision is made…..

Clear enough for some??

There were also 2 enquiries tabled to the House of Representatives into how the JSF was bought into and how the AIR6000 competition scrapped.

It just makes you wonder if they had there thinking caps on straight? IIRC they fell in love with the Phantom didn’t they?

Yea the RAAF didnt really want to return them andi can recall reading that they (the RAAF) wanted to keep the F-4s along side the F-111s.

I severly doubt that the B-52 would’ve been able to operate safely in the hot aussie environment with our wonderfully short runways we had in those days.
Nor could we afford to operate them!

the F-111 stopped the East Timor intervention from turning into anything more serious. the RF-111C has a capability we will never have again. I dont know why you mention china and vietnam, we haven’t worried about that since 1973…..
But Indonesia? all conventional warfare training for australian forces is based on fighting Indonesia….. whether its when we finally liberate west papua, or a disintergration of order in Indonesia that leads to a military administration…

Well, yes, you are right that since the RF-111 was retired that the international newswires have been adrift with news of massing Indonesian forces ready to assail the shores of Queensland. Sort of an Israel vs. Gaza situation you have there.

Now I get it……losing 20, twenty year old airframes in your combat force and replacing the entirely with 124 modern aircraft with better AEW, tanking, and support and Australia will end as we know it.

Gotcha

Who said we are getting 124 airframes???

I rest my case….

I still don’t get this obsession-like death grip that some AUS posters have on the F-111. The Indonesian hordes, Vietnamese infantry, and Chinese navy are not waiting to rush the island of Australia the minute the last F-111 is retired from service……….Australia lived before and will after it is gone. And, it really is quite something that AUS is planning to add all the new assets in the pipeline, increase the number of combat airframes, and add new offensive navy capabilities all at the same time. A LOT of countries should be very jealous of them.

the F-111 stopped the East Timor intervention from turning into anything more serious. the RF-111C has a capability we will never have again. I dont know why you mention china and vietnam, we haven’t worried about that since 1973…..
But Indonesia? all conventional warfare training for australian forces is based on fighting Indonesia….. whether its when we finally liberate west papua, or a disintergration of order in Indonesia that leads to a military administration…

We all hope for peace, but to not prepare for war by having the best, we actually increase the chance of war:(

You mean… “Sumarions” ?? Not Indonesions? lol. Sorry couldnt help myself

“”WHY THE HELL DO PEOPLE INSIST ON FAULTING THINGS FOR NOT BEING WHAT THEY ARE & WERE NEVER INTENDED TO BE!

The F-35 is a replacement for the F-16, F/A-18, AV-8B & A-10 NOT a medium bomber for God’s sake.””

Thank you for that statement…. finally a word of truth… yet the so-called “experts” tell Australia the F-35 is a good F-111 replacement.

A single engine aircraft with two internal bombs is hardly what one calls a “medium bomber”.

And before someone says… oh but they can put some bombs under the wings.. duh… so much for so-called steatlhyness? May as well buy some “super” hornets…. oops