slipperysamOh, sorry, I seem to have wandered on to the wrong thread… could you point me the way to pak fa news please…..
Yup thats right, another thread ruined…. usual suspects, same garbage.
slipperysamScooters responces are getting very tiresome, repetitive and with nothing to back them up other then some kids wet dream (or payments as a publicity spruiker), keep believing it.
Sadly the thread has turned into an other idiotic F35 discussion, and not what is good for Australia.
slipperysamWell, it sounds like the issue with the M-1 is Australia didn’t request fully re-built and upgraded M-1’s. (i.e. like new) If, true that is hardly the fault of the US nor the M-1 Design.
Wrong again…
I think you missed the bit where i said do some research.
These are fully rebuilt M1A1-AIM (these tanks appeared on a US TV show called Mega-Factories which actually followed the rebuild process of the Aussie tanks).
Issues have been… aircon units failing, engine mounts cracking, engine fires, smoke generator fires to name a few of the serious ones. Consider that these have occured on equipment which is not used that much!
(edit: not to mention the logistical nightmare of moving them!)
The M88A2 Hercules Armoured Recovery vehicles are also suffering issues, one of which is the fact that it was loosing tracks and was limited to 35kmh (from memory). All this I found out early last year mind you when i read an army magazine.
Blinding saying how great the F35 is (an aircraft not even in service yet and with so many issues, cost over runs etc) beginning to wear thin. Im sure the PR people are happy with the flag waving…
Australia can not afford the spiralling costs, nor the fact that its now5/6yrs behind schedule which is forcing us (the tax payer) to spend BILLIONS on an interum fighter (and possibly make it perminant which would save us BILLIONS).
slipperysamSorry, the latest M-1’s are equal to any tank currently fielded………as for the other Military Programs you listed. What do you expect??? That everyone will perform perfectly and always be on budget??? Really, list a country that has had a perfect record or even close is such regards!
Really, in todays 24/7 Media every program is in trouble. Being over budget and under performing. Which, is usually not the case…….:eek:
You know its funny… everytime you reply on here you seem to be applaudly the F35, do you have shares in the company?
Anyhow, further back in this thread i said… and i quote :
And just how good are these tanks going? anyone? Do some research before anyone answers this question!
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=122774&page=2
Last year I read a report FROM DEFENCE (as I AM in Defence) about our marvelous rubbish 2nd hand tanks…. before you again type garbage on here telling us we are idiots and dont know what we are talking about and applaud loudly telling us how good it is… do some research.
slipperysamIf we were serious about strategic industrial development then one thing we wouldn’t be doing is importing second-hand American tanks,
And just how good are these tanks going? anyone? Do some research before anyone answers this question!
all deals in the aerospace sector are connected with bribery. Without exception.. You cannot win by honesty if all your competitors are deceiving and people have bribed for much less than few billions $.
Hence why the F35 “deal” needs to be looked into…. Decades ago Australia was seen as the straight cut “buys on merits” when it came to large scale defence procurements. Seems like in the last 25yrs or so we have joined the rest of the “global” world when it comes to buying rubbish.
Anyhoo… If the sale of the 24 SH does eventuate, lets hope its perminent and the aircraft are allowed to remain in service until its natural demise.
slipperysami’m just wondering, considering the huge size of Australia (and furthermore Canada), why stick to F18? Its range isnt that long. (F15, Rafale, Typhoon with CFT etc. got longer rangeno?)
The orginal program (AIR2000 i think it was) was started back in the mid 1990s which was to find a replacement for the F18 and then the F111 was added.
Request for tenders were called and the short list was comprised (from memory) the Rafale, the EFA, the F15S and the Su30series.
Suddenly the whole thing was scrapped and they decided to buy into the F35 program.
The Super Hornet is/ was (still unsure what going to happen) to be used a stop gap because the F35 is now years behind its delivery schedule. The F111s were retired and we needed something in the mean time.
The SH was ordered because of the fact (I can only assume) because it would be somewhat common to the current F18 in some certain respects, not to mention weapons comminality.
The current legacy hornets only had some 30 (?) center barrel replacements, as they expected the F35 to be ready on time, so there would be a period of transition between the legacy hornet (those unmodified would be retired first) and the F35.
We are now in the situation where the legacy Hornet is getting closer to its retirement age.
I doubt if they reopened the floor to aircraft manufacturers to submit thier case that anyone would come to the party after the tenders were all turfed out without notice last time.
slipperysamAs to shoes/equipment, is it correct to say nothing was done? http://www.defence.gov.au/dmo/lsd/iss/about.cfm
you either work for DMO or are a public servent?
DMO is a joke defence wide and is well known for its blunders.
Wow so they print a review… oh goody im impressed.
By they way guess how many shoes fell apart on me during ANZAC day marches? 4 sets in total, this included the newest “unbreakable” versions.
Several years ago a Lance Corporal emailed the Chief of the Army/ or CDF (cant remember was a while ago) who complained about DMO and their actions during a trial of a new desert cam.
His unit was part of the trial in Afghanistan testing out new patterens etc and they were all advised that DMO had already made the decision BEFORE THE TRIAL to a uniform which wasnt suitable and that the trial was there to GO THROUGH THE MOTIONS.
Tell me again… those in charge know what they are doing?
How about the seasprite helicopter which cost the tax payer some $800 MILLION dollars and then were scrapped! Oh im sure it was good for Australias “aviation” industry then too was it? Even the Navy were circulating joke emails about the project…
We could go on about our 2nd hand refurbished tanks… but im sure your familar with the issues there?
The MRH90 which isnt as good as everyone thought it was…
Combat body armour which didnt fit well and didnt intergrate with a soldiers webbing…. which meant soldiers were forking out up to $2000 of their own money to buy stuff that worked prior to their deployment..
Want me to go on?
Im sure youll gloss over it anyways
slipperysamif there was really anything deeply suspect the incoming Labor government would have used that to their advantage when they came into office. The original decision after all was made by the former Liberal government. Remember how the decision to purchase the Supers was questioned and used to score political points? In short, there has already been more than a Senate enquiry.
An enquiry into what? the reason behind the SH purchase?
Ok I have an example of an issue in defence which started under the liberals and continued under labour… (again the same senior public servants are still there giving the same bad advice). While its “minor” and off topic, it shows that nothing gets done… nothing changes.
In 2007 the parade shoes issued to RAAF and ARMY started to fall apart. The soles would come clean off during a march. 1000s of (chinese made) shoes fell apart. It was embarressing! The shoes were recalled. A “new version” was issued… months later, same thing, shoes fell apart. Shoes again recalled.. in the mean time we had a change of government to Labour.
And guess what, the 3rd version of the shoe still falls apart to this very day… nearly 6yrs later! Now surely a “new” government would get it right?
NO? why? Because the party in “power” is only as good as the public servants around them.
The same issue with the F35… all the senior RAAF bigwigs keep saying its great, we need it…. and the senior public servants also say its great we need it… (to not look like fools).
Its that simple.
slipperysamNot when the Labor government suffers from the same rot and is receiving advice from the same corrupted defence bureaucracy. Labor continued Australia’s intervention in Afghanistan also, but this is not an affirmation of the wisdom of that mission so much as it is of Labor’s cowardice.
Indeed Labor did make some poitically motivated noise prior to the 2007 election about pursuing the F-22. Courtesy of Wikileaks we know that there was nothing behind that — that the American ambassador who queried Labor on this was told ‘nah, don’t worry about it.’
thank you!!
someone who understands that when governments change, the rotten bureaucrats at the top remain the same. It is these same people who give the same rotten to the core advice to the pollies.
let me put it this way, if i was to buy something from the internet using government money, I would be in trouble.
same principle with buying into a program into an aircraft which DID NOT EXSIST….
slipperysamI remember reading that one of those “training” squadrons mostly sat around doing nothing for a few yrs because delivery was continually being delayed.
With all the restrictions on it one would imagine they simpley did a lot of straight and level flying ….
slipperysam2? ok.. good for some museums i guess.
slipperysamThe RAAF should drop the F35 sooner then later (i think we have committed to 12 so far?) and there should be a senate inquiry into the whole thing.
slipperysamUm.. i think some people have taken this “impressive weapon load” thread a little out of context.
Any one can build a model plane and put thousands of plastic bombs under the wings…. hardly impressive.
This includes screen grabs from games… and photoshopped images which people think are real…..
slipperysamYou need to read the Commonwealth Procurement Guidelines (CPGs) a little more closely. There are more than a few grounds under which Federal agencies can purchase other than by open tender, where that process is deemed not suited. Nor are agencies obliged to commit to a purchase as a result of a tender.
So it was the Goon and Kopp show?
Perhaps you need to re-read it…
in 2001 the F35 didnt exist and was just an idea and a computer simulation.
IT DIDNT EXIST.
They bought into a program which wasnt real… a bit like reading tea leaves.
The RFT program was cancelled.. it didnt run to its end.
If the government decision was an honest and OPEN one it wouldve said.. The respondants to the tender process did not meet Australia’s requirement and then cancelled or resubmissions shouldve been made.
Instead the manufacturers knew NOTHING and the whole thing shelved.
Do you understand the concept of transparency? Clearly not…
The ABC story can be seen on their website, insteand of making comments about Koop and Goon.. go see for yourself.
slipperysamI suspect you’re taking that show more seriously than most here did.
Wasn’t one of the people featured Peter Goon from Air Power Australia (as in Karlo Kopp and Peter Goon)?
Ah dear oh dear… does it have to be explained???
The procurement/ buy in.. what ever you call it, broke FEDERAL LAW.
yes thats right it broke FEDERAL LAW when it comes to complex procurement in defence or ANY other federal dept there are set procedures to adhere to.
The AIR2000 (?) requirement had a request for tender process which meant all the manufacturers would rattle their bell spruiking how good their aircraft is to forfills Australias requirements.
The F-35 WAS NEVER OFFERED… IT WAS NOT in the tender process.
The whole process was scrapped suddenly (Rafale, SU-35, EFA and the F15S strike eagle i believe was the short list) and the government announced it was going to buy into the F35 program for a non-refundable amount of some $200MILLION (2001). This wasnt a deposit… this was just to be a partner and be at the front of the que when production started.
Sadly NO ONE CARES! No one gives a toss at how many billions are lost in rediculas deals which never come to fruition ($900MILLION wasted on the seasprite debarcle… and NO ONE CARED!)
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