dark light

Kurt

Forum Replies Created

Viewing 8 posts - 1 through 8 (of 8 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • in reply to: Uprated Cheetah Atar9K50? #2537555
    Kurt
    Participant

    Yes, the F-16I was not delivered with the Elta EL/M-2032, true, but it was what Isreal designed for it. It’s what Isreal wanted for it. The AN/APG-68(V)9, inferior although it may have been, won out. That’s because the US was paying the bill.

    Madrat,
    If the AN/APG-68(V)9 is indeed inferior, do you have any idea in what areas this may be? Range, accuracy, number of modes, reliability?

    Also, this would explain the remarks made to me by a SAAF 2Sqd pilot at an Aviation Africa ’96 that the radar and systems on the Cheetah C are better than those installed on some F-16’s. The SAAF did state that in terms of the Cheetah C, the radar, navigation/attack systems and avionics are more capable than the systems as fitted to current F16s!

    in reply to: Uprated Cheetah Atar9K50? #2537790
    Kurt
    Participant

    The F-16I appears to use it, too. Any idea what limitations each version of the 2032 radar has versus its capabilities?

    This link details it as the EL/M-2035 radar, a development of the Elta EL/M-2021B.

    Madrat,

    As for the F-16I, it uses the AN/APG-68(V)9, doesn’t it? As per all the other F-16 Block 50/52+ models.

    As for the EL/M-2035, I have seen it offered as an upgrade for the Cheetah E and F-5 fighters (in an old Air International issue of ’95 or so), but I have never seen any data on it. Is it possible that the EL/M-2021 evolved into the EL/M-2035, and was the later modified into the EL/M-2032?

    I must admit, it is a lot easier to follow American radar development (as per model designation) than it is to try and keep up with the Israelis. Their radar sets are evolving quite quickly.

    in reply to: Uprated Cheetah Atar9K50? #2590428
    Kurt
    Participant

    Kurt..of course, the ATAR is much heavier than the RM12. I have also seen that the Cheetah C’s empty weight is over 8000kg. Is this true?

    I don’t suppose you would “ask” your friend at Denel if they have any info on the Cava or Carver project would you? A Cheetah replacement project cancelled in the early nineties. Apparentely there was a wind tunnel model at the CSIR a few years back that was quite openly displayed.

    On the first count, I do not know for sure, but I wouldn’t be surprised. Remember the 0.5m fuselage plug, new radar, internal ECM, and other new avionics they packed inside the airframe.

    On the second count, he’s too recent an employee (from ’98) to know anything about CAVA/Carver. I’ve sent you a PM with the whole sordid story. 😀

    in reply to: Uprated Cheetah Atar9K50? #2590452
    Kurt
    Participant

    Hammad,

    I’ve got that same copy of Air International. With regards to the wing, the following info is courtesy of the “IPMS South Africa” website’s
    ( http://www.ipmssa.za.org/ ) Denel Aviation Cheetah Knowledge Base section:

    “The Advanced Combat Wing was originally intended as an export item by Atlas for operators of Mirage III/5/50/aircraft and to improve the turn rate of the Cheetah E. At the time the Cheetah programme seemed so successful that key components were offered as export items to Mirage III operators. The new ACW featured a fixed, drooped leading edge with no dogtooth. Fuel capacity was increased to extend the aircraft’s combat radius on internal fuel. Further gains in sustained turn performance, higher AOA and even lower minimum speeds were obtained. This wing was fitted to the sole Cheetah “R” no 855 and first unveiled in 1994, at an exhibition, at Waterkloof Airbase, that represented the aerospace industry in Southern Africa. This became Aerospace Africa in later years.”

    “Despite the advantages of the new wing, the SAAF did not select the ACW for use on the Cheetah, as the Cheetah E was due for replacement by the advanced Cheetah C, but the existence of the Cheetah C was a closely guarded secret at the time. The only Cheetah “R” was subsequently taken apart. The ACW wing went to the SAAF Museum at Swartkop in 1995 and the rest of the Cheetah “R” found its way into the normal Cheetah programme. An ACW was also fitted to Cheetah D no 844. This aircraft is used by Denel as a technology demonstrator and for system testing. This aircraft was exhibited as a static example at the biannual 1995, Paris air show. Cheetah D no 844, is mainly used by Denel and performs on the odd occasion at South African Air Shows. The extra missile pylon was not fitted to this wing, but a feature of the ACW as it allowed for two additional missile pylons.”

    Hope this helps.

    in reply to: Uprated Cheetah Atar9K50? #2590506
    Kurt
    Participant

    Mpacha/Wilhelm –

    Why is info on the Cheetah C so hard to come by? 😡

    Nobody has let slip any info on the Atar Plus, the radar (EL/M-2032 or 2035), or the data-link capabilities. I’m just dying for the day I can get a good hi-rez photo of the cockpit (all I’ve managed to get a good view of so far was the HUD and the UFC. Also a pilot telling me at African Aerospace ’94 that the C-model had three colour displays in the cockpit.)

    The Cheetah C was first introduced in 1993, now 13 years later with the Gripen about to be introduced, there’s still almost no info. :confused:

    in reply to: Uprated Cheetah Atar9K50? #2590541
    Kurt
    Participant

    Swerve,

    If memory serves, the 21 or 22 surviving F1AZ airframes are still stored at Hoedspruit AFB. There was some talk (seen in AFM magazine) of selling them as spares (or complete airframes) to possibly Libya, but I have no idea if this has ever taken place.

    At least one is still “operational” in a sense. One used by Aerosud (Super Mirage F1) to promote the F1-SMR95 engine combination.

    I’d assume the Atar engines are still available, because the Cheetah C programme was completed before the F1’s were withdrawn from service.

    I’d like to refer you to a website that has an enormous amount of information regarding the Cheetah and Mirage F1 ( http://www.ipmssa.za.org ). Just browse through their “Knowledge Base” section.

    in reply to: Uprated Cheetah Atar9K50? #2590931
    Kurt
    Participant

    Wilhelm,

    That would be full PC (Post Combustion) as the local pilots call it.

    The standard 7200kg + 12% (8064kg total with afterburning) puts it close to the Gripen’s RM12, doesn’t it?

    I would have loved to have seen the Cheetahs and F1’s with thrust ratings similar to the F-16’s GE’s and P&W’s. That would have been just too lovely for words…

    in reply to: Uprated Cheetah Atar9K50? #2591137
    Kurt
    Participant

    Wilhelm,

    After the AAD 2004 show I had the same questions after hearing a Cheetah C take off. The Cheetah’s engine definately had a louder, deeper rumble to it than the Mirage F1AZ that took off before it.

    This piqued my curiosity as both aircraft were supposed the run the same engine, the ATAR 09K50. I asked one of my ex-technikon friends who’s now employed at DENEL Aviation to see if he could come up with any answers.

    Unfortuanately, info on the Cheetah C is still very much classified, so it’s scarce to come by. What he did find out was:
    that the motor is listed as an “ATAR Plus”, official designation being 09K50-C11 (or C13), has plenty of local (South African) components, allows far more mishandling of the throttle (slamming it open or closed without fear of surge or flameout), faster spool-up time from idle to afterburner, and a thrust increase anywhere from 8-12% over the original Atar. Still no FADEC, though.

    Please remember I got this info from two DENEL Aviation employees who still work under the threat of non-disclosure agreements, so bear with me if the info isn’t accurate…

Viewing 8 posts - 1 through 8 (of 8 total)