c-sevenThere´s quite huge (400 pages +) MIDS-LVT program relatory in the RAND site, so before answering “on top of your head” is better to read it. The MIDS-LVT is a link16 modem, Link16 is a proprietary data link wich the onwer is the Pentagon, every single modem wich works in L16 is restricted by ITAR rules including the ones built by Euromids, its not just a question of the origin of the equipment, but software and hardware certification, proprietary protocols, etc, etc.
Euromids is completely dependent on the IPO for certification, design, maintenance software, basicaly, for everything (that is clearly described on EUROMIDS site).
Even the suport equipment (externals like the MIDS LVT(11) Voice Control Unit or the MIDS LVT(1) Host Interface Unit) are ITAR restricted.
MIDS-LV and Link 16 are tools developped between allies to cooperate more efficiently through this communication tool.
It is obvious that if this tool is diverted from its spirit to become a economical tool (i-e: the US would sell it themselve but would prevend anyone to sell it) France is not kept by the letter of the agreement which has been diverted such a way.
Then we leave the legal arena to enter the strenth relashionship arena and the point is that the US has no technical pressure leverage on the Rafale.
As simple as that.
It’s the only one of the lot but the Mig 35
c-sevenAnd? What has that to do with ITAR problems? Are you aware that every single MIDS-LVT modem sale including the ones built in Europe has to be aproved by the American state department?
MIDS-LV is a collaborative program between France, Germany, Italy, Spain and the US.
For the rest we elect our own deputies and American laws are not enforced here.
The only ITAR components in MIDS – if any – are components that are available everywhere on the shelve on the open market which means that it worth nils.
France can use those components as much as she want…
… as long as she doesn’t use AMRAAMs or F414s! (because of the pressure leverage)
The French know it and the Americans know it.
c-sevenYou are aware that the hardware piece that got ITAR problems in the Typhoon Saudi sale, was the exactly same MIDS-LVT that the Dassault RAFALE uses, right?
No. He can’t be aware because it is not the case in the Rafale.
EUROMIDS is a French company which outsource the manufacturing to several European companies: Thales, Marconi-Selenia Communications, EADS and INDRA.
I haven’t come across anything of Eurofighter saying “AESA will not be in service by 2015!”
I haven’t come acoss anythhing in 2003 saying that the Storm Shadow won’t be ready in 2011
2003 picture
There is also a EF+Taurus, on the taxiway, ready to take off…
c-sevenI would also like to know how you can confidently say that the F-414 is more advanced than on any of the other jet engines?
I’m not that confident that’s why I said “IMO”.
But there are evidences of that: the Americans first introduced the most modern metalurgy methods and alloys we see now. As well as “Blisk” and other improvments like that.
It shows because in spite the efficiency of the F414 is comparable to the M88 and EJ200 ones, it is more reliable it seems.
SNECMA had to make the M88-ECO / E4 to be on parity… in 2012.
The EJ200 isn’t better concerning the reliability issue with even shared rumors comming from the users (Austria, Germany…)
Curious
France has been insisting on high prices for its products for a long time.
High cost of French equipments are not explained (only) because the French are supposed to be greedy. If’s expansive because:
– smaller production to pay off the R&D,
– perfect quality control and services,
– over-evaluated €uro,
– we can’t afford to lose money on deals.
There are not much margins for a smaller price.
Important point is that India will not want to fund the majority of the upgrades for the MMRCA over the coming decades. Which, should give the Super Hornet a big advantage in that department……
To me it will be between the SH and the Rafale (I can be wrong of course)
The SH hasn’t only strong points:
– good in the low to very low speed arena, it is not good in the fast/high range.
The Rafale is a better frame design and it’s better or at least even in all the kinetic spectrum
– the US has switched to the F35 and the SH is a gap filler. It won’t be developped much further… unless the customer pay for it one way or another.
– within the Indian time frame, the Rafale will be on parity technically with the American offer concerning the few points it’s still behind (some advanced AESA modes, M88-E4).
It’s the only one of the lot.
– Everything starting from that even point, the Indians have no leverage on the US to get more simply because the powers are too unbalanced. On another hand you can be certain the French will always be glad to share developments on say GaN AESA, conformal antenas, sattelite links, etc. Indians competence are highly regarded. Also, with the Israeli: the Indians have a second source for kits where better prices – or more up to date designs – can be found (short range missiles, Litening pod for instance)
Edit:
oh, and happy and successfull new year to everybody…
c-sevenWhat is your problem?
Selex and Saab/ericsson have been developing radars for centuries, why do you think this would change?
AESA isnt any new thing, many operational products around, AESA is only new in fighterradars, and is a natural step in development.
European firms and goverments does introduce this later than US, due to lack in scanvolume and range. They have instead been studing this throu development programs until the think its worth a dam.
For Sweden they think the want this about 2018, not earlier.Saab had a flying platform as early as 2004(NORA project).
They tested air-to-air and air-to-surface engagements while operating in low-observability mode.SwAF didnt still dont think th PS-05a is lack performance until earliest 2018.
Everything is difficult in the advanced fighter business.
Thales is world number two for radars, the AESA RBE2-AA nevertheless needed a significant long term comintment from the gov’, both scientifically, politically and financially:
– the choice of the PESA electronic scan RBE2 for the only reason it brings knowledges on the way to AESA (they already had the Captor like low intertia mechanical scan radar with the RDY2 of the 2000-9. Dassault Electronic even proposed an AESA then, i-e: the late 80’s… finally the PESA was the compromise)
– DRAA program. In 2003 the Dassault was flying an ASEA using Raytheon MMIC (Thales UK had to buy them Btw, Thales France couln’t)
This radar allowed the development of softwares.
– DRAAMA program and 400 more milliion € of the roadmap Rafale poured in in 2006, plus the European programs and budgets (under Thales leadership) AMSAR and Korigan for MMIC components.
In 2009 – six years after the first flight of an AESA – the design of the radar is declared operationnal. The fully operational prototype is presented to potential customers and participate at several exercices.
Two years after – 2011 – first industrial samples are admited into the forces and one more year (2012) to get it declared fully operational in squadrons in its V1.0 version.
Don’t think it’s easy to cope with the American technological and financial power in the defense arena.
However the 2018 figure for the Selex in the NG seems honest (if funded)
And yes: american AESA are still more advanced and UAE blk-60 have modes the RBE2-AA doesn’t have yet. That answers the UAE remark.
This way to minimize the installation of an AESA is pure commercial talks nobody serious can believe.
With regard to the Gripen NG’s AESA radar, Air Marshal Nigel Maddox of the UK Royal Air Force (RAF) said that the UK will have an E-Scan requirement for its Eurofighter Typhoon force at some point in the future and that “any programme that de-risks the UK radar has to be fantastic”.
“It’s win win,” he added.
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdw/jdw091111_1_n.shtml
The Indians can of course take the place of the Brazilian in the ingrat task to “de-risk” the project.
An aesa won’t be as massive a game changer as intimated by the focus on aesa.
The Indian MoD strongly disagree and they are not the only ones.
While we are at it: yes the American F414 is also more advanced than anything in Europe (IMO) and the LM Sniper pod is better than the Damocles.
… and more: all this comes less expansive!
Yes… but they don’t transfer technology.
(and fortunatelly we have other good points too like discret BVR IIR, ECM, Meteor and AASM for instance)
c-sevenNot sure how they can take F16 as less developed, or proven as the EF, but if quicker induction is important, Rafale and the US fighters have a clear advantage!
I agree. At least the F16IN has an AESA.
Biggest problem with the EF (and Gripen btw) is that the planes have no real funded AESA program to date (but a development cell – everybody have that now)
Not sure that all the German PR and the promises of offsets (with EADS Airbus’s and Eurocoptere’s assets they don’t own anyway) would be enough to balance such a drawback.
c-sevenIn other words… it USED to cost less, but is NOW more expensive!
France used to have a large overseas empire. Does that mean it really still does now… even though all those colonies currently have their independence?
After all, according to Dassault, the past is the true situation, and the present is just an illusion, right?
That just mean that I agree with Aspic concerning the currency aspect, with one slight difference: “export” first a Scalp-EG on the BCE….
…the rest will follow…
c-seventhat doesn’t even make sense
It does make perfect sens.
2003 -> 1€=0.85$ -> 60M€=51M$
2010 -> 1€=1.40$ -> 60M€=84M$
Congrats to the BCE by the way…
c-sevenWho would you rather believe in this matter. Dassault who has two deals worth nearly 20 billion at stake or the US Embassy who has no reason to lie to the USG in a classified cable.
Also Kramer, It only makes sense for the Americans to apply pressure before any deal is signed and not after. IF the Gripen is selected and then the Americans playing underhand tactics will further erode their market position in India and also it won’t help GE. Even Tejas re-engining would be put into question.
Also on the F414 ToT, I think since Tejas will also be using it, it would be more benefical to India than any other engine offered.
So whatever tricks Americans may try they will try now before the deal is clinched by some one, after that they will not be disruptive force, unless of course we go on and explode a nuke of some kind. 😉
If you are certain to agree with Sarah Palin (and the like) for the next 50 years: go on 😉
And no: it’s not before the deal that you’ll feel the weight of the special “friendness”.
It’ll be once you’re hooked and locked; and it’ll be requiered to agree to every and each tactical options even though you share the same values globally.
c-sevenIt’s not the power itself. It’s the need to maintain that power
True. They even have a very influent think tank widely spread among the administration to the very top: it’s the “Projet for a New American Century” which aim is to keep the power the US gained during the 20th century; after WWII when Europe has sef-destroyed itself with 2 world wars and left the field.
As you said, nothing shocking and it’s not anti-americanism to notice the obvious.
Anyway, for strategical affairs it’s better to deal with powers of comparable strenth as you.
c-sevenWell, when a country – France – has been so right for so long concerning the need to be independant from the US, in spite their special “friendness” (a true one in reality), in spite all the pressures, all the bashing sometime and all the costs…
… and another country – the UK – so wrong for so long concerning the “special relationship” in spite the loss of know-how concerning plane design (no more planes built in UK after the end of the hawk :(), missile seekers, IR components, balistic missiles, nuke, etc…
… then the reward must be given to the due one even though the secoond one tend to change horse at the moment…
Too late: they are already locked in the F35 and they don’t have the budget to bet on two horses.
The reality is simply that it’s the end of the road for the Eurofighter since they didn’t invest in the full Tranche 3. Remove all the press releases and spins and that’s the raw fact that remain.
Thanks wikileak: it just reveal that we were all right in spite we’ve been treated as paranoïd at every argument.
“Power is tirany, absolute ppower is absolute tirany” (someone)
I believe the Rafale is much more “ITAR free” than the Typhoon simply because that was a worry from the beginning and for each and every components even the tinyest one. In typhoon case that was not the case because of a more “poodle” mentality of those (too numerous) who designed it at that time.
It’s worst for the Gripen.
Also, there is not only the platform. Other important points are the weapons and the weapon system and the integration of both:
– Mica vs AMRAAM,
– Mica vs ASRAAM (American seaker in that one),
– AASM vs Paveway,
Anyway the Rafale is better than both 🙂
c-sevenLaughing makes you younger, so thank me if i do make you laugh.
Problem is that it’s very cold out there at the moment and my lips are chapped 😀
So don’t make me laugh to often like you do because it’s painfull 🙂
Sorry I would believe the leaks over any offical denial because the leaks are supposed to be confidential there is no need to lie in that.
I do too.
When you call a US general to have a US participation to your new aero show and the general tells you: “Rafale is old technology compared with our top galactic F22”, you answer politely: “yeah, yeah, all right…. but you’re gona show us your galactic F22 at our show or what??”
c-sevenIts not like he called the entire French defence forces a outdated force, it is true however that currently there are a generation of planes in the 5th generation, which have the advantage of far smaller RCS, and designed from the beginning to accommodate modern electronics.
What there is on front of it?
F18, F16-blk60, Gripen, Eurofighter and SU27 series.
So don’t make me laugh.
For the future and brochure planes, we’ll tallk of it in due time.
And it’s not like the French aren’t working on stealth, AESA, lateral conformal GaN AESA antenas, ECM, on board satellite links (even laser ones), anti-satellite launching, long range ramjet missiles, latest engine tech’ with ‘blisk’ and newest complex alloy, on so on…
… and cooperation with Brazil (if not India…) to gain the critical mass as a bonus.
c-sevenwhich would seem an obvious opportunity for further FR-UK cooperation?
You mean as obvious as the purchase of Rafales by the RN to put on its Elisabeth class?
“Obviousness” is a two ways road (like cooperation in fact)
c-sevenYou have to make the choise between:
1. To be totally dependent on one nation
2. Be dependent in small portions all of the western worldWhich has he most risk involved?
Which is the most independant?
Wrong reasoning, sorry.
If you are dependant on ONE critical component you are TOTALLY dependant because without engine your plane won’t fly, yes, but it won’t either without radar, without fly by wire, without APU, etc, up to the most tiny critical component.
so the more relavant question is:
1. mutual dependance with one proud nation which share the same ideal of independance for decades…
2. be totally dependant on all the western world as you say, most of them without any will for independance anymore anyway.
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