c-sevenAbsolutely! 6 European navies have now bought variants of the Thales SMART-L, but that is, unfortunately, a very rare example of the best European equipment being widely adopted. Elsewhere, it’s an APAR here, a SAMPSON there, with Herakles & EMPAR elsewhere, Taurus & Scalp/Storm Shadow, Otomat/Exocet/RBS.15, etc, etc. 🙁 Everyone does it.
Astute / Barracuda built by half dozen every 30 years each side of the Chanel…
T45 / Horizon (though they tried :()
Well, as French we like to bash the Brits because…. because….
… because of it – but I think that a lot of us would applaud a U-turn with a grand renewed “Entente Cordiale” as a smart strategical move in this trouble dangerous world ahead of us.
I’d go for:
– purchase on the shelf of our PA2 in exchange of a Brit purchase of the Rafale M
– Astutes purchased on the shelf and we deliver our Triomphant class/M51 combo to the Brits. Not less.
we can dream….
c-sevenI wish France bought her PA2 (second aircraft carrier) off the shelf from the UK at the same price the UK buys hers, and sold the Rafale in compensation to the RN at the same price the MN bought theirs. It would be a win win. An airgroup of Rafales would definately be enough for the foreseeable future. And a mixed Taranis+/Rafale airgroup would probably be even more efficient than a mixed Taranis/F35 group. 1st because the Rafale will most likely cost less to operate, and secondly because a two seat Rafale would be ideal to coordonate UCAVs strikes from a safe distance, while at the same time prividing air cover/buddy-buddy services.
Nic
X2
The Taranis / Neuron will be the “stealth bomb bay” of the Rafale for the first day, don’t need the F35!
And that’s the best way to go. Those awful European political cooperative of workers proves their inefficientcy again and again,
on another hand the home designs built in tiny numbers are as ridiculous.
But to buy each other our best equipments is definitally the way to go.
c-sevenIt’s awfully quiet around here now…?
whereas the discussion continues at Trimbles blog:
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/11/rafale-beats-f-35-f-22-in-flig.html
Found on Trimbles blog on the 21th of October:
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/10/dassault-rafale-sort-of-scores.html
Stephen Trimble article«Never before perhaps has a fighter been “selected” by so many countries without actually, you know, signing an order. […] The Dubai Air Show is next month. Will it finally be Rafale’s turn to participate in a contract signing ceremony?»
Charle de Gaulle: «“Signing an order”, you said? Well, we will see. Add also Switzerland, this brave new Libyan world and… who knows?
»As a high ranking official from South Korea recalled us recently: “The Rafale was close to be selected by our Air Force but …very strong political pressures came from this brave new Bush! Quite a pity because the French jet was smart and it flies”
»Ô! Just one last question: after years of massive successes for the JSF, how many “orders” from foreign countries?»
Stephen Trimble : «CdG makes a good point about the F-35. I think there are four aircraft on order for export. Two for the UK and two for the Netherlands, although the latter may only have one. So three or four, anyway.»
Charle de Gaulle: «Good to listen to attentive friends like Stephen Trimble.
»“Hélas” you are right: two countries ordered four of those strange “test F-35” (operational / prototypes) and at what price! NL parliamentarians were close to have an heart attack… No F-35 more after +/-20 years of research development.
»The NL asked for more time, the UK asks for carriers and cash, the Norwegians asks for a definitive price, the Italians have other subjects to deal with (and are unofficially happy with this artificial “delay”), the Turks have a declaratory policy for “20 more”, Israel went from 100 to 25 to 50 “planned orders”, etc…
»Nothing like “signing an order” for the best world fighter. Check it.
»PS: Only the US pretends that the F-35 is a fifth generation fighter and (all) other fighter from fourth (or fourth and a half for the friends [:)]). The French quietly say that the Rafale could be from the sixth generation, just for fun.»
Pleasant to read exchange…. 🙂
c-sevenIn a2g the Rafale is to be preferred, however if one considers that the price is rougly twice as high…. I would much rather have 120 NG than 60 Rafale 😀
BS. The admiral GUILLAUD who pilot the Brazilian projet French side has tackled SAAB latelly for all the bull****s they sell to the press and the public place.
The Rafale is not twice as expansive as the Gripen it’s ridiculous. A little more expansive yes, but certainly not X2.
Now the Rafale provides the impact of two Gripen NG as the admiral Guillaud says 😀
c-sevenStooooooooppp!
If Dare2 is who I think he is, it’s useless to argue with him.
We had some interesting points, some intersting links to some interesting sources, some different point of views we can choose to agree or not, just let it go now.
The ones who’ll be the trolls will be the ones who’ll argue with him.
c-sevenI think that having a hand in A400M with airbus and a hand in C390 with dassault would be a win-win for france. Especially considering we are going to need a smaller plane to complement the A400M. CASA planes could do, but it we have a hand in C390 it’s all for the better.
But honestly I’m all for ordering off the shelf C390s if the brazilians are able to make it right, and I don’t see why they wouldn’t be able to. They’ve made a few very good civilian designs and I don’t see why they couldn’t make a good transport.
Nic
The Brazilian found a hell of a market segment with the KC390. It’s a direct head on competitor of the C130, they are exactly the same class (20 t)
… and there are thousands of C130 worldwide to replace. The quantity of C130 flying over this planet is unbelevable. It is sold by thousand since the 60’s.
The point is that we can turn the problem any way we want: a newer design is always more efficient than a older one, whatever upgraded versions pulled out by the maker.
See A320 v B737, A330 v B767, A380 v B747, etc.
So that a good KC390 can make a bloodbath on this market, and Dassault would be wise to jump in the wagon while doing its Rafale deal.
Especially with its hepfull expertise for such a cooperation; and its credibility vis à vis NATO and other countries.
But France ISN’T cancelling their A400M order in favor of “Embraer and Dassault C390 partnership”. They’re not equivalent planes – C390 is replacing the 130J which many other NATO countries are looking at further orders of b/c of the delays in A400 from MTU’s non-auditability. Further, this Embraer/Dassault partnership has nowhere been announced except in the wishful imaginations of posters here.
No. It’s not “wishful imaginations of posters here”.
There are real talks about a Dassault involment in the KC390 in case the Rafale deal go through.
c-sevenIt worth noting that the A400M issues come from EADS Casa as well as MTU – Germany – for the engines (FADEC)
The A380 delays came from Frankfut where they were using outdated 2D Cad Cam as well as paper drawings for the wiring in spite the clear directives of the direction to migrate to Catia V5 (the Catia V4 -> Catia V5 version is a legend: they weren’t on modling 3D Cad Cam at all)
The Eurofighter is a disaster which pump EADS ressources for nothing but inconveniences for France. A financial disaster at least, only to avoid to debate on the technical bad choices.
And as OPIT say, and everybody admit more or less, the A300 design was mostly a Aerospaciale one sold to the Germans at the genesis of Airbus, comming after the Concorde, the Caravelle, and the common “Galion” project made with Dassault.
Personaly I still don’t see the relevance of EADS 10 years after. The old GIE system was so bad that Airbus became number one under this system.
And at least responsabilities were well identified under the GIE, as well as the penalities in case of failure.
Out of Airbus which was working just fine without EADS, the rest is problems.
Well, to get gack to topic: if the French were concelling their A400M order in favor of a strong partnership between Dassault and Embraer on the KC390, it’d be fine for me (and for the Brazilians I gess)
c-sevenGentlemen, that’s a great idea to put two F119-PW-100 on a Mirage IV.
Let’s do it! 🙂
(With a bit more carbone here and there but don’t touch the drawing!!)
BTW it seems that the MIV has still a lot of fans
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=83254&page=6
c-seventhe Rafale has bugged out of the competition due to the Froggish arrogance from Dassault Aviation
It depends if the competition is all to please some burocrats and journalos who are surounding this deal like flees around a …
Dassault makes the bet to speak seriously to serious people, with serious aguments, giving ingeneering informations, sharing operational issues, etc, all this adressed to the rationnal operationals in charge of the defense of the country.
… and doesn’t care about the parazites around for now.
Those ones almost succeeded to eject Dassault from the competition because of this but they failed thanks to IAF pressures.
Call il arrogance if you want.
Everyone can talk as much as they want: the tests are going to begin soon and reality is going to sort all this out. Some are gona cry then.
After the tests they’ll see that the serious ones in the IAF can prevail over the clownish burocrats. If so: don’t worry they’ll make communication to look nice soon enough 🙂
(and will pay a swiming pool to each of the fauna around, they don’t have to worry :rolleyes:)
c-seven@ Arthuro
That’s another interesting question to put tomorrow. Or, if it sounds too specific to answer, you could try asking “can 2 Rafales triangulate an enemy aircraft and obtain firing solution for either MICA IR or EM, without using radar emissions or laser rangefinder?”
+1
Or using the OSF (TV chanel) of two Rafale and fuse the datas.
When you’ll ask the question Art, be very carefull at his face to decode his body language 😀
BTW let’s not throw away the TV chanel with the IR one.
It’s still there, very apreciated and next version will have “near IR” capabilities.
c-sevenSince 1990 we had 20 years to pay for a proper GBU/targeting pod integration and link 16 on the 2000N and the F1… and we did not.
Nop. Retex from Afghanistan are 8 years old max, (say 4 years or even 2 years for our high rank generals and politicians who are reactive like vegetables…)
Had we spent money for upgrades in the 90’s and we’d have spent them for:
– more Scalp to destroy bridges and shoot dictators in their block-houses (Kossovo RETEX)
– Mica for the 2000C, i-e: probably a upgrade to the RDY (expansive)
That’s more or less what the brits have done with their Tornado ADV
The AASM was started in the 90’s and we don’t have to complain here.
No it’s not.
it’s not a matter of shooting some Toyotas. it is a matter of being able to support your ground forces with efficiency when they engage taliban hidding in mountains and villages : Close Air SupportRetex from Afghanistan show that you need :
– small but acurate guided bombs
– optronic sensors to track and ID ground targets becuse you don’t want to shoot your own troops
– guns, and rockets because they are cheap and very efficient against targets of opportunity.
– ability to get and use targeting data from ground forces
– ability to carry different kind of weapons in the same flight (GBU, rockets, canon) in order to adapt to different kind of targets.
– Enough fuel to stay on station as long as needed
– Enough weapons (2 gbu is not enough when you don’t have a canon –> mirage 2000D)We have currently no aircraft cabable of doing that.
The sem is almost doing it, but in fact not really : it is either the targeting pod or the canon… and it doesn’t carry enough weapons and fuel (only 2 GBU)
I agree with all this.
I also agree with Sens, we need mainly a AASM / JDAM dispenser for ground forces.
For this you need:
– Rover and comunication network. It’s on the way and it’s the least expansive part.
– and the AASM of course.
We did not know that a decade ago.
So we don’t have to complain and we’d better appreciate our luck to have not diverted our money for useless upgrades
The only thing that annoy me it’s that the M2000C are now only usefull to intercept a CESSNA who get lost above a nuclear plant (and even for this: we use more and more Fennec hélicoptère…)
They have very good 30 mm guns while the 2000D doen’t,
They have a A-A radar (to find the KC135) the 2000D doesn’t
We also have plenty of them and the cost of the infrastructure to keep them flying is very important.
Why don’t we:
– keep the 2000D and Rafale for high value added mission (Iran or Syria scenario),
– sell half of the 2000C to Brazil or whoever
– take the money to upgrade the other half with AASM, Rover and comunications with the ground (Africa or the Taliban),
– take the money saved on logistic, infrastructure and workforce to finish the Rafale with all its options.
I-e: a clear strategy at least.
Note: in the previous post I’ve said “Mig 25 like” but our aviation fans have corrected themselve with “SU25 Frogfoot like” :cool:)
c-sevenwhich is the best choice ? Both of course !
I would agree with it (and even sign with both hands ;))… but it’s too easy.
Roadmap Rafale it’s 400 million €.
Roadmap Rafale it’s: ASEA, OSF-NG, DDM NG. Add say 400 M€ for the operational M88-ECO.
How much would have costed the upgrade of all the 2000C fleet? (to Mica standard at least?)
Plus all the other upgrades you’re refering to?
More than that. So a choice has to be made.
Cuz I agree with Sens: the F1 or even the 2000 suits perfectly to shoot Toyota’s in Africa or A-stan (they have very good 30 mm guns…). It’s already an overkill.
We can decide that they are now Mig 25 like for their second life and organize accordingly.
It’s more or less the case technically so it shouldn’t be any problem but incompetence or cowardise.
The only problem is that some sky knights with a air defense culture are frustrated when they are explained that they must now train in the mud to throw slik bombs and make gun passes.
Also, we clearly don’t need so many of those “rustic” planes.
After it’s a question of choice, make it clearly, impose it at every level and be 100% coherent with it (better than let shortage of funds rules the strategy for all the non-Rafale part of the AdA, which drives to frustations)
I often think that some anti-Rafale comments come from this frustration.
c-sevenEngagement combat
Frapper à distance
Chasseur bombardier
Les flottes de bombardiers sont différentes en nombre et en qualité selon les pays, mais parmi les pays européens la Grande Bretagne affiche une supériorité tant qualitative que quantitative, en net décrochage avec les moyens de combats français, de part une plus grande polyvalence et un format supérieur au notre.
It’s normal.
The 2000C and even more the F1s are at the end of their life cycle and the Rafale isn’t there yet in numbers.
That’s always the same with generation change. At the beginning your are at the top, then average and at the end you are low waiting for the new generation.
The brits have made the choice to upgrade their Tornados (and Jaguars before)
We prefer to invest in R&D for the next generation (Which should have came earlier BTW).
Which is the best choice? Debatable and debated. Anyway it’s too late to change mind.
As told before, I even think that at this point we should go to the end of the choice we’ve made and simply close the 2000C bases and use the ressources to improve the Rafale to full option.
Now you p*** me off.
What do you propose? Buy F35?
c-sevenIt’s never easy to sign a contrat with both hands after you cut yourself an arm…
:diablo:
Good one 😉
c-sevenWhat’s the problem anyway, that M88-ECO/3/whatever is better than M88-2?
We know it thanks, that’s why it’s called “ECO/3/whatever” and not “-2”.
That OSF-NG is better than previous version? Great, that’s why ‘NG’ means “New Generation”.
That AESA is an improvment? Noooooo, the US invented it just for the fun of it….
Honestly I’m glad we French can pull all those upgrades out of the box when needed, and I’m pretty glad that UAE ask for all of them.
I got a message to our UAE friends: we also have the sattelite link in the box… Ask for it! 😀
And if at the end the AdA fire 10000 more “non operational personels” (comming after the 15000 purge of the White Book); or even close more bases (that provide only useless luxury Ferraris AKA: M2000C with R530D, for some fancy pilots) in order to fund all those upgrades for French Rafales too: I sign with both hands.
Sometime you must be able to cut yourself an arm.
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