Yeah.

And change the name of the already opened threads.

Your representation of the society is oversimplistic.
Workers don’t grow on trees. You first need students and teachers to form them. So teachers do create values… yet indirectly and students are the next generation workers. They are of primary importance.

Yes but the service provided is a such a luxury one, with worker so ultra-trained, that they can’t find job… because there are no more companies!
The cost of all those high standard services is too high to remain competitive in spite all the efforts. That’s a fact globally.

If only it was that…. In fact the cost is of Swedish level, yes, but the provided service and the productivity is not at level far from it. Because of a completely obsolete organisation model and a “leflist mind” where savings and job optimisations in the adm is considered as antisocial.
Very hard to change that.

So if it doesn’t change (let’s remain optimistic though), Nicolas’s forecast may well become a reality.

Just keem em taxes coming, and France should be ok.
In Greece, thats the problem.. no one are paying taxes, their eco system are a mess.

Yeah, the Greeks are a race which cheat taxes – Boooooohhhh – (because they are Mediterranean probably)

In fact they saw their socialist government wasting money to build highway going nowhere, they saw 50% of their population becoming civil servant doing nothing usefull, on so on. If I was a Greek entrepreneur I wouldn’t want to pay taxes for that I can garanty you.

Hollande was elected, let’s see what he does before judging him

I agree perfectly. I even do it with a positive mind. That’s a duty for the country to do so.

We can agree with all posts above concerning the intentions, they are ok.

Now concerning the facts, the problem is that the workers voted for Le Pen and the entrepreneurs voted for Sarkozy.
Thats it for those who create values.
Those who voted for Holand don’t create values but consume it.

They are now all waiting at the door for more money, the civil servants, the territories, the studants, the unions who want for 1700€ as minimum wages, the train workers who want their 57 year old retirement age back, the illegal immigrants who expect their new passeport tomorow (as well as the unlimited social beneficts) etc.

And since Mr. Holland want no conflict with anybody, he’ll have to “negociate” with the train workers to get a consensus that the retirement age is 62, and everybody will of course agree around the table. And everybody will be happy with no conflicts, no harsh insulting words (like the horrible word: ‘No’) and nobody will get hurt… good luck…

Will there be some money left for defense (and investments in general)?

Possibly. There’s maybe some margin to pull on the rope some more so that we’ll go into bankrupcy only in 5 years and not now (like Greece).

But well, we’ll judge on acts and he can be a good president. Some people unveil themself under a new task, especially those we underestimated…

We wait with a positive mind.

Mirage 4000 really !? In 2005 ?! A more accurate description of that analysis would be bedtime story…

Yes, that’s a weird part. I wondered for a minute if they didn’t plan a Mirage 4000-5. The drawing of the 4000 is as old as the 2000’s which was well evisaged after all and for a local production… why not.

I remember this article of the Indian Time concerning the M4000 in India.

Pooling research, or fundamental capability, seems to have been the approach of Thales-EADS’ GaA AESA foundry…
OneComplexWeapon MBDA re-organization between France and UK, and France’s push for the recently consolidated Thales/Safran IR programmes to consolidate with both Selex Galileo and Diehl/Rheinmetall’s IR programmes seem to have alot of logic as well. With UK-FR joint development money already dedicated and available to serve as an impetus for industry, that side of the project seems to have good prospects, and Diehl may well see the light if saying no means 90% of the European IR sector will consolidate without it.
Elections are a factor, and buying the Israeli-UK(Thales) Watchkeeper UAV seems the sort of thing that could possibly be questioned… (spending less for Reapers and putting the difference straight back into French UAV research was an alternative) …Big picture-wise though, I don’t see much changing to these plans (with a Socialist government in FR).
There’s definitely more consolidation in the works IMHO, not just UK-FR, but other Finmeccanica units, Diehl, Rheinmetall, Thales, Nexter, Indra…

That make sens sometime like the common Thales/EADS fundry for AESA components (GaAs in Germany and GaN in France)

But all those grand industrial monoeuver are also very dangerous because of the loss of diversity of choice as a consequence.

When the DGA made the requierement for what became the AASM, MBDA was the arch-favorite and Sagem wasn’t even in the smart weapons business and its offer was considered as an outsider excentricity.
… but they won thanks to an innovative original design and we are very lucky to have had this deversity of choice then, or no AASM for us.

Of course the AASM had issues at the beginning and it came out with delays but this is little problems compared with the BIG problem when your only national champion go a dead end way which can always happen (it’s not because your big and many people share the same opinion that a choice made is right).

Look at the F35 like TooCool say. Maybe it’s a good design and it’ll be a huge success but suppose that that kind of expensive “5th generationn” plane become finally a flawed concept?
Let’s say that the cost and drawbacks of the stealth design doesn’t worth it finally and UCAV’s as the “stealth bomb bay” of 4th gen’ aircraft are the way to go.

I don’t say it’s the case but we don’t know yet: those planes hasn’t been confronted with the Darwinist evolutive pressure of war after all?

If so then the only world superpower is in a big s*** and is at risk to lose its statut in fact.

Now look at the diversity the US used to have:
– Loockeed (sp?),
– Boeing,
– Nortrop (sp?),
– Mac Donell Douglas
– Grumann,
– General Dynamic
– Vough Aircraft,
etc, etc

When the dinosaurus became unadapted, we were lucky that they were some little rats around or we wouln’t be there. No more aviation “little rats” in the US anymore unfortunatelly.

So cooperation: yes, but only when it brings a strenth, but it’s stupid to do it a way which drive only to weakness. Better nothing then.

Mildave said something very interesting in the other topic:

To finish I just can’t get it how it’s possible some are so blinded by propaganda that they cannot see a simple fact. Experience + funding + clear requirements almost always make for a better product. […]
Dassault has been building delta airframe for decades, Rafale is almost a direct upgrade of the Mirage 4000. The AdA and Dassault were able to have much more feedback on the limitation of such a configuration in operational condition thanks to Mirage 2000 (Mirage III) and export customers. It’s simply not surprising they’ve made so little mistakes. Dassault had a small succes with the F1, but they realized that if they were to bring something truly new against the F16 they had to go back to what they were doing best. Microsoft might not be the best out there, but it certainly is the more user friendly, affordable and widely used OS in existence for the general public because of the package it provide. Rafale is arguably the best two engines delta canard currently operational for the same reason (plus the fact that they are working 70% on civil jets with much harder worldwide competition leading to much better management practices than almost 100% defence companies). I’m sure BAE or even the Israeli can teach more than one thing to Dassault and the French about stealth technologies and UAVs as they have done on many subjects.

Very true. Advanced fighter are like fomula one: they work hard years after years to gain 1 second a turn.
It’s highly evolutive work and experience and background count a lot.

The number of countries involed or the money poured in doesn’t make all or it’s like if you say that General Motors would win the formula one championship the first year because they are much bigger than Mac Laren or Red Bull.

It was much easier for Dassault comming after the Mirage 4000 and there is nothing extraordinary in that as long as a program always followed another and the teams were managed carefully (very low turnover at Dassault)

Concerning cooperation, to my opinion the most sensible thing to do would be France to buy it’s PA2 on the shelve to the UK and the UK to buy Rafales to France for its QE class.

Otherwise cooperation projects ok but with a leader on each projets: one project with France as leader, another project for the UK, etc. Keeping in mind that leadership isn’t synonimous with work share or funding share.

I greatly admire AlphaZulu patience with Jackoniko.

I think the Tibetans must very seriously consider the prospect of AlphaZulu as the next Dalaï Lama 😉

I too remember the 2005-2008 era when Jackonico was already “active” and we had to defend the Rafale against “proven”, “large consensus”, “well known”, “admited”, “have been told”, etc, assumptions to draw a global picture where the EF was a beast in the same league as the F22 and the Rafale along with the J10 and the likes which was “quite an archievement already for a single country like France”.

… and the Rafale was winning the beauty contest!

Since then all the points only the well documented French knew were proven right and thus, each point of the EF propaganda machine went wrong.
It’s like if on each weak point of the EF we had a comunication counter-fire to balance the technical weakness:

– Radar. EF’s is same generation as the 2000-5 ones i-e: low inertia mechanical
– MMI. Late on the sensor fusion
– Multirole. Then the Rafale become a compromise with trades-off to deal with A2A
– and now the price.
– even engines. Rafale’s power has been highly under-estimated and was of course in the same vein as the “traditionnaly under-powered French planes”

So that now I doubt about everything, even high speed/high altitude manoeuvrability until proven.

(The fact that the EF made it to the final in India is a good point though…. unless the IAF really wanted the Rafale and knew it’d never make it on price against the F18 and the F16IN….)

All the BS has been counter productive. Too bad.