TruthspeakerCheers Snapper.
On September 5th, 1940, Pilot Officer Robin Rafter of 603 Squadron was shot down in his Spitfire over the Thames Estuary. His tail came off and the effect of this was so violent that it actually catapulted him through the (closed) canopy. He came too falling through mid-air and was able to deploy his parachute. Whilst in hospital Rafter wrote a lengthy account of the engagement to his mother, the original of which was given to me by his sister some years ago (and from which I was able to work out that Stapme Stapleton had shot down Franz von Werra in this action, see ‘Through Peril to the Stars’, Ramrod, 1993). Unfortunately Rafter was killed on his next sortie, his first after returning from hospital, when his aircraft inexplicably dived in (oxygen system failure not responsible as not high enough to be breathing O2). What he didn’t record, and what I have always wanted to ask him, is whether he had removed the pin from his Sutton Harness before he got thrown through the canopy? Common sense suggests that this must have been the case, but I fail to see how he would have had time. Perhaps aircraft becoming tail-less is worth a study in its own right?!
TruthspeakerBack from Duxford and read the posts in my absence with dismay – just when I thought we were all playing nicely again someone upsets the apple cart. I am puzzled, however, as to why Mr McKay, who by his own admission is an extremely qualified chap, feel the need to participate in forums such as this with the great unwashed and unqualified aviation archaeologists that we are? Strange that, if what we do is so worthless… draw your own conclusions, and that, Mr McKay, is, amongst other things, from an MBE (services to aviation history) and a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society.
Anyway, a great time at Duxford, shame about the weather, but we ended up with 20 pilots etc on Sat and around 30 on Sunday. Great to meet Big Vern and Snapper, and good to see my old friend Steve Vizard after quite a few years – and Peter Arnold too! The veterans were just fantastic, never cease to be amazed by what these elderly and apparently insignificant people have actually done in their youth – talking to a very frail and wheelchair bound former Spitfire pilot who was telling us about being chased across Normandy whilst desperately stamping on the cockpit floor (and yes, I do know that the Spitfire didn’t actually have a floor as such, but you all know what I mean!) in an attempt to dislodge his jammed drop tank! Awesome.
One for Snapper – cine gun footage. So far as I am aware, there is none surviving from August 9th, 1941. I have obtained, however, loads and loads of previously unbroadcast cine gun clips, and was actually filmed by Wildfire at my PC describing what was happening in certain of these clips – but this went unused in the final cut. Looking at the attacks on shipping, it is really interesting to see the splashes from .303 and the much heavier 20 mil, makes you realise just how much lead was being spewed at a target.
Someone also asked about whether the Germans photographed Bader’s crash site, which is an interesting question. The Germans were extremely keen snappers, and there is an abundance of photographs from German servicemen. I have always thought that somewhere in Germany there must be a photo of a German soldier guarding that Spitfire, the ID of which they might be unaware of. One has never come to light, however, so who knows?
Another interesting thing on the subject of Bader’s crash, and which I am surprised has not been mentioned. The RAF Musum has on show a clock, allegedly removed from the wreck of Bader’s Spitfire by a German army officer and presented to the Museum by his son. Look at the clock: it is pristine. The Director, Dr Michael Fopp, is a very old friend of mine and we discussed the clock at lengh 10 years ago. Michael is convinced that the artefact is genuine, and explains the unsmashed glass face as being a replacement. My view is that this cannot, under any circumstances, be genuine. Given the circumstances of Bader’s bale out, unless the Spitfire blew up before it hit the deck, it would have made a significant impression in the French sod. There is no way that the clock would be intact, that being so! Over the years I have recovered many Spitfire instruments, including clocks, and these are inevitably smashed to pieces, or at best extremely mangled. Even if the Spitfire exploded, that clock would not be in the pristine condition it appears, so whatever the case I do not believe it to originate from Bader’s Spitfire.
Surviving JG 26 personnel were, in fact, canvassed by American historian and author Don Caldwell, on my behalf 10 years ago, with regard to whether any survivors could recall where Bader’s Spitfire crashed or personally visited the scene. Again, we drew a blank.
I almost feel I have to apologise by having returned this thread to Bader and his Spitfire, but there we are!
TruthspeakerOK folks, just off to Duxford to set up for the show. We are staging the Spitfire veterans’ reunion for the IWM, and are located near the control tower. Signing takes place 10 am – 1 pm both days, and I have over 40 pilots and groundcrew attending over both days, 90% of whom have never signed a thing before! Getting that many vets together – some of whom haven’t seen each other since 1945 – is going to be an absolute privilege, and add all those Spitfires flying to this potently nostalgic mix and there are bound to be tears!
Hope to see you there – Cheers!
Dilip
Dilip Sarkar MBE FRHIstS
http://www.DilipSarkarMBE.co.uk
http://www.VictoryBooks.co.uk
TruthspeakerAndy, Am ready for that beer!
TruthspeakerGod help us! At least we weren’t on the credits of that programme!!
TruthspeakerAnd by the way Andy, referring to Herculean struggles and blooshot eyes – I was joking!
TruthspeakerEqually, it is still possible that Mark 12’s explanation of the foot getting trapped in the pedal when first one and then the other rudder cables snapped is what happened as the rudder pedals travesered fore and aft, rapidly, to the stops and with huge force. Bader’s impression is that he was trapped by the leg, and for a while he may well have been. That does not preclude the possibility that, in fact, it came out of the cockpit with him…either attached or with the straps broken or partly broken and then it fell away as the chute deployed. His bloodshot eyes were, without doubt, the result of HUGE “G” and not his herculean struggling. Oh God…this theorising could go on forever! I am convinced, though, that to answer Alex’s point his leg was not in the cockpit when the Spitfire crashed. It couldnt have been. Andy
I agree with Andy – the leg wasn’t in the cockpit, it was thrown clear. Remember, returning to ‘Reach for the Sky’, whatever Brickhill wrote about this he was guessing, as Bader was certainly not present when the leg was recovered, and nor, I suspect, was he particularly interested in the circumstances!
TruthspeakerAlex, why not go back and read Bader’s account (via Paul Brickhill) again before leaping to conclusions?
The leg was reportedly covered in mud and had been found in the area of the other pieces of the “smashed” aeroplane. Perhaps this suggests that it wasn’t inside the cockpit?
Guys, Just as a matter of interest. Do NOT take anything written in ‘Reach for the Sky’ as historic gospel, because the book was not written or intended as such. It was written simply to make money, and various bits of the tale were deliberately twisted to make a better story. For example, in the book and film, DB comes round in St Omer’s Clinique Sterin, after his capture, expressing surprised coincidence at being in that town, where his father was buried. Really? Er, well, no. Major Bader is buried in Brussels! Another cracking bit of gilding the lilly is the photo of Bader sat in the 109 cockpit at Audembert, being shown the controls by a German officer covering our hero with his Luger. Really? Er, well no again! The German officer (Hans Joachim Huth, who himself had only one leg) is holding his leather gloves! Look carefully at the picture and this can be confirmed.
I discussed ‘Reach for the Sky’ at great length on several occasions with the late Laddie Lucas, wartime Spitfire ace, and not only Bader’s brother-in-law but also one of his biographers. Laddie, like me, had been led up a few false trails by following ‘Reach for the Sky’; as he said to me, ‘The perils of a biographer, dear boy’.
So, to be honest, whatever it says in ‘Reach for the Sky’ just cannot be assumed as historical fact – one of the reasons which motivated me to write ‘Bader’s Tangmere Spitfires’, ‘Bader’s Duxford Fighters’ and ‘Sir Douglas Bader: An Inspiration in Photographs’. The latter, by the way, was commissioned by Lady Bader and all royalties were donated to the Douglas Bader Foundation; it was a fascinating project to work on and the thing that moved me most was that Lady Bader produced a ragged cardboard box of photos and memories from the attic – ‘So’, I thought, ‘at the end of the day the great Douglas Bader ends up in the attic like everyone else’!
TruthspeakerOn the subject of the leg, one thing that I think Wildfire made too much of on the programme was that had the leg not come off, Bader would have ended up crashing with his Spitfire. It is equally true to say, I think, that had he been able-bodied then he wouldn’t have got stuck in the first place! My impression, having examined a pair of his wartime legs, is that the reason he got stuck was because he didn’t have enough flexibility in his ankle to slide his false foot out of the awkward position it had got trapped in by the rudder pedal. Getting in and out of a Spitfire isn’t that easy at the best of times, but for someone without legs, given that his aircraft is tail-less and plunging earthward accordingly, it must have been nigh on impossible! A Herculean feat, no less – no wonder he had bloodshot eyes!
TruthspeakerThat’s right – the majority of these pilots are ‘new’ to the scene and have been traced during my current research project. These new faces will be a breath of fresh air, and more are contacting me on a daily basis. This show will give some indication of what is now possible, so all signature collectors brace yourself for next year!
By the way, the above is not the full list of support staff, which also includes: –
Mr Bob Morris, Battle of Britain engine fitter on 66 Sqn.
Mr & Mrs Robert Johnson, Spitfire fitters.
Mr J Roddis, Battle of Britain groundcrew on 234 Sqn during the Battle of Britain and with 485 during the D-Day period.
So how about that for a come back!
Would like to thank Tracey Woods, Marketing & PR Manager at Duxford, for her kind help, and Rob Rooker, 152 Squadron supremo and aka Black Panther.
Dilip Sarkar MBE FRHistS, http://www.DilipSarkarMBE.co.uk
TruthspeakerDon’t go there.
This has been discussed at length here, and there are those who give it credence.
Moggy
Really! Well Lady Bader and the Douglas Bader Foundation don’t, so there!!
TruthspeakerRe the Wing Leader who was shot down deliberately, it wasn’t Bader but it did happen. My friend Colonel Dean Black in Canada has actually researched the whole thing (‘Who Shot **** Robin?’) but has yet to publish; not sure that he ever will.
To clarify the debatable points, we are all agreed that the liklihood is that Buck shot down DB; what is now in question is whether or not those involved knew; I believe not, Andy believes othwerwise, we have agreed to differ.
Without intending any disrespect whatsoever, I have to say that suggesting W3185 is under that little lake bed is a bit of a desperate straw to clutch at, dontcher think? That having been said, to ascertain whether or not this is the case is a simple matter – just trundle a mag over the top by boat. Simple. Is there any reason why this was not done?
TruthspeakerThe Bader Enigma; from the sublime to the really ridiculous, and, as the Bader Foundation’s Historian, you can quote me!!
TruthspeakerRoger that Andy Saunders, we can at least agree to disagree amicably on this one. There is evidence for and against, as ever, and the truth will never be known. It is probably just a good job that neither of us are gambling men!
TruthspeakerOK, I had promised myself that I wouldn’t get wound up about all this again, but reading some of Andy’s recent posts mean that I have to respond!
Buck Casson was not a part of the Bader ‘inner sanctum’, which largely comprised Johnnie Johnson, Hugh Dundas, Nip Hepple and, to a lesser degree, Alan Smith and Jeff West. Even the 616 CO, Billy Burton, was outside this close circle. Buck was a quiet, kind and gentle man, completely the opposite to the brusque and buccaneering Bader.
Why didn’t Bader mention Buck in his logbook? Because Bader was only interested in Bader, I suspect.
Why wasn’t Buck mention in ‘Reach for the Sky’? Only the very key players and inner sanctum were mentioned, and Buck Casson was neither given that it was unknown back then that he had shot Bader down.
Why wasn’t Buck invited to the ‘This Is Your Life’ programme? Because places were limited, as can be imagined for someone as famous as Bader; there were others far more important to Bader’s biography, which is what the programme was about, and as for the Tangmere Wing pilots present from 616 Squadron please note that it was Dogsbody Section only – of which Buck Casson was never a member.
Andy has suggested in his ATB article that post war Bader and Casson were estranged. This is absolutely not so. They played golf together frequently after the war, and Bader even accepted Buck’s invitation to open the Sheffield ATC HQ (Buck was the area ATC Commodore). Air Commodore Graham Pitchfork, a retired fast jet pilot, Station Commander of RAF Finningly, published author etc etc etc, was actually a cadet who was presented to Bader by Buck on that evening! Graham’s treasured photo of the occasion was provided to Wildfire TV for the programme, but not used; I wonder why?
Let us also have a look at the chap who called himself ‘Max Mayer’ who was introduced to Bader in Oz as the man who shot him down. I have in my possession, via the journalist who set up the meeting, a handwritten letter from Bader to Mayer, saying how much he had enjoyed their brief meeting and stating that he hoped they could meet again and talk further about the old days. If Bader, who did not suffer fools, knew that Buck had shot him down, I really can’t see him entertaining this Mayer character at all, much less writing to him after their meeting! Due to Bader’s schedule the pair did not meet again whilst Bader was in Oz, and Mayer died soon after. A great shame that for he was clearly an imposter, and definately not Walter Meyer (who was killed in 1943). Would be interesting to know who this chacter was, and what his motives were.
What I do think is that when I put my findings to Johnnie, Sir Hugh Dundas and Sir Denis Crowley-Milling in 1995, they knew that what I was saying was correct. Johnnie, however, loved 616 Squadron and knew that in the eyes of the world whosoever shot Bader down in friendly fire had put up the greatest black the RAF was ever likely to; on that basis, to protect the reputations of 616 Squadron, Buck Casson and the RAF, Johnnie refused to accept that it was true without hearing it from Buck. When I spoke to Buck, of course, he maintained that he had shot down a 109 that day, and I really do believe that is what he thought. Sir Hugh Dundas wrote and urged me to consider his advice against publishing ‘very strongly’ (see ‘Spitfire! Courage & Sacrifice’), but this was only because he, like all of us, was worried about the adverse effect media interest would have on Buck. Sir Denis Crowley-Milling, however and whom I had also known well for many years, called me an unprintable four letter word beginning with ‘c’ and refused to help me with anything else in the future, he was so furious; sadly he died not that long afterwards.
Also, if Buck knew that he had shot down Bader, and, as Andy reckons it was so easy to put things together from the content of Buck’s letter to Bader on his experiences of August 9th, 1941, why on earth would he have given copies of that letter to researchers? Me in 1987 and Andy whenever, a couple of smart arses as ever breathed and who might just put two and two together? No, Buck Casson was a kind old man who was trying to help with our respective research – mine, originally, into Buck’s wartime experiences generally and Andy’s regarding Tangmere.
Lady Bader would tell you that Bader always joked that it was ‘Johnnie who shot him down because Johnnie wanted his job’, which was nothing more than a joke. Do we, from that, think that Bader really thought that Johnnie shot him down – of course not!
So I am sorry, Andy, but I absolutely disagree with you and could argue against every point put forward to support your cover up theory. More likely, I would suggest, had Bader known, he would have exploded with fury, not kept quiet for Buck’s sake! Of course the cover up theory is an attractive one to the media, and it is noteworthy that although Wildfire was provided the entire argument, facts and evidence against the cover up theory none of this material was used. Now that isn’t Andy’s fault, I accept, but it does not reflect well upon the producers who have failed to make the balanced programme Graham Pitchfork and I were assured was being made.
I am not going to add any more to this debate, because the foregoing categorically and comprehensively states my case. We could argue about this until the squadron comes back, but really what’s the point? Andy has his view, we have ours, which we believe 100%. Each interested individual will have to assess the evidence him or herself and decide. I have no intention of bludgeoning people into believing what Graham and I say, and neither should Andy. Assess the evidence yourselves and make up your own mind.
Right, going to the stationers now to pick up some bits and pieces for the Duxford show!
Cheers!
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