Thanks for those details Wilhelm, certainly makes for interesting reading, a Mirage III at over 75k ft!! I guess the extra weight and fuel penalty associated with the rocket motor proved not to be worth the additional boost in thrust and speed. Also, it seems it was primarily intended for intercepting very high altitude targets, so limited application I guess.

I can see why most operators of the Mirage family opted to install a chaff/flare dispenser in place of the rocket motor.

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I always wanted to see a radically revised version of the classic Mirage III/5/50 series with a Rolls Royce Spey engine, canards, revised double delta wing with wing tip hardpoints and updated avionics and FCS, kind of like a cross between a Mirage III NG and the Mirage IIIK.

JF-17 is the most controversial plane after the F-35 in modern times. Some would have it as a MiG-21 derivative. Aboulafia is on record saying an F-16 can should it down in 5 seconds (yes, down to the seconds).

Others claim it is the MiG-33 really.

Yet others claim (such as our former comrade here SOC) that it was a poor purchase and Pakistan would have been better off going with the J-10.

Earlier on, it was a case discussed hotly that “this is why you shouldn’t sell Pakistan F-16s” as the JF-17 looked like a copy.

More recently there is the whole discussion that China will not buy this plane and Bacon claims it will be a major flop in the international market.

LOL, it never ceases to amuse me how you can weave the JF-17 into virtually every topic on this forum. Seriously, have you ever considered getting that thing, you know, a life?

No.

The JF-17 can and has been fitted with the Chinese TY-5B ejection seat as fitted to the J-10.
I’ve also seen it mentioned that either the TY-6 or TY-7 is used in the JF-17.
They’re zero-zero seats.
They actually have a whole range of ejection seats, and have manfactured thousands of them over the years.

Pakistan did indeed want to equip their JF-17s with a MB seat, but I’m not sure they actually went ahead with this, and might still be equipped with the TY-5 or TY-7.
I do recall seeing somewhere that Pakistan did order the MB Mk16 seat though.

EDIT: It seems Pakistans JF-17 is equipped with the MB seat, but that is not the only option.

JF-17s with the PAF use the MB Mk16 seat, i.e. the same as the F-35 JSF.

On the wider issue of the Argentinian’s opting for the JF-17, I think it offers greater possibilities in terms of “plug and play”, i.e. integrating non-Chinese weapons and avionics, not to mention all the integration work that has already been done by the PAF. To this end, it uses standard MIL interfaces and architecture. There’s also the possibility of synergies from the RD-93; I posted a while back on this thread of a mixed hi-lo structure comprising the JF-17 and maybe the Mig-35, if funds allow. They could also go for a common radar/avionics/weapons package between the two aircraft. I think considering all other options, as well as funding, this may be the best solution for long-term growth and development.

Holy cow this has got to be the winner, its real and has room for 8 more on the wings. 20 SDB I’s.

Including the 8 on the wings, plus at least 1 on each of the CFT hardpoints (6), gives a grand total of 34?

^^ Yes, but does it have a toilet? :p

The Libyans, like so many others had their chance but blew it. It seems the people of that region and of course the Middle East in general are incapable of living in a peaceful, democratic society that’s free of sectarian and religious violence.
As I said earlier though it’s so much easer and much more politically correct, almost trendy infact to place the blame at the feet of “The West” for their ongoing problems rather then expect the people in the region to actually be accountable for their actions. For example one only has to look at the period after the removel of Saddam and you see that Iraq could have been something, something great in the time since his capture but instead the people and certain neighbouring governments of that region decided otherwise. So very sad.

I completely agree. The Sunnis and Shia hate each other more than they hate the “West”. Given half the chance, they would quite readily annihilate each other. You only have to look at the history of Islam and it’s spread across the Middle East to see how bloody it has been. Immediately after the death of the Prophet, Muslims began killing each other along religious and political motives, resulting in the Sunni/Shia schism. I’m not saying other religions are any better, Christianity has been equally bloody, and all the more reason that we discard organised religion into the dung heap of history.

The US and it’s allies have spent almost 15 years in combating Al Qaeda, hunting down OBL, a full blown invasion of Iraq, hundreds and thousands of lives lost, still combating the Taliban in AfPak and yet here we have the US walking down the same blind road of trying to arm one side against another, even though we know the guys we’re arming would just as easily commit atrocities in the West. I’ve just seen a Channel 4 News item on some jihadi outfit documenting how young radicalised British Muslim men are joining the hard line rebels and dying in that conflict. Are we really going to arm these hard line nut cases, only for them to come back and commit terrorist attacks in London, New York or any other major Western city? It’s just plain crazy…

Regarding Pakistan, 2025 plan was cancelled, J-10 procurement is scrapped/postponed, additional 18 x F-16C/D is scrapped/postponned and JF-17 induction has slowed down (still no news on 3rd squadron which was meant to be stood up in March 2013 and then June 2013).

Given there’s still 6 squadrons equipped with Mirage III/V, I don’t see them being retired any time soon unless PAF wants a massive capability drop. PAF has 18 fighter squadrons including several OCUs:

3 with F-16A/B/C/D
2 with JF-17 (probably all 50 JF-17 Block I aircraft are supporting these 2 squadrons).
6 with Mirage III/V
7 with F-7P/PG

6 squadrons is about 108 aircraft plus attrition/maintenance reserve. Pakistan certainly won’t have 108+ aircraft delivered between now and 2015.

Currently Mirage III/V is more capable than F-7 fleet, especially in strike, recce and anti shipping.

I don’t think the 2025 plan has been cancelled, there hasn’t been any official word on this, and what official announcements that are available suggest delays/postponements. This is the official report (report number 4) that was recently used as the basis for the recent dramatic press news regarding “no funding since 2007”, which doesn’t make sense given the acquisitions that the PAF has made since then.

http://www.senatedefencecommittee.com.pk/reports.php?pageid=reports

To summarise from the report:

The Committee was informed about the continuous efforts and innovative ways of indigenization of Air Force planes as well as other equipment including joint ventures and joint up-gradation facilities/arrangements with friendly countries. The Committee was however informed that budgetary constraints were not only increasing liabilities but hampering the up-gradation and development efforts.

and…

In response to a query by the Chairman of the Committee, the Chief of Air Staff informed that PAF had formulated a long term plan called AFDP 2025 and had been effectively implementing it from 2003-04 to 2007 but the national resource constraints thereafter have caused some delays and postponements.

The ROSE upgraded mirages are still expected to operate beyond 2015, as well as any low hour airframes that were acquired from Lebanon and Libya and put back into service. So the idea of the Argentinian’s leasing some upgraded or low hour Mirages from the PAF isn’t really feasible, as the PAF will need all the airframes they have given the delays in the 2025 plan.

I think the Argentinian’s are better of doing what the PAF did with the global fleet of Mirage II/Vs, but instead focusing on the F1s. My best bet would be to focus on the Spanish and Moroccan fleets. Anybody have any detailed info on what the current status and conditions are of these? Acquiring all remaining airframes for parts would also be useful.