Of course its a copy. The point I think Ken is trying to make is that copying the B-29 (the height of current technology) by a ‘backward’ communist country half of whose industry had been destroyed by massive conflict is an amazing feat. I think it is too. It would be like the North Koreans copying an F-35 or something. I’d be impressed – wouldn’t you?

When you put it that way, yes I would be! It would indeed be a great feat of engineering!

With the various opinions listed above, I think I’ll wait until its available to rent!

This seems to be a sound investment considering the events that have transpired in recent years!

Pakistani Pilots have been stationed in Saudi Arabia since 1960s. They first ventured into 6 day Arab Israel war where they flew for Egyption & Syrian airforce. The 1st 15 pilots have said to have faced the war & had a kill score of 11 enemies down (shot 11 Israeli ACs down in the war…although on some accounts it is said that no. is 5 to 7). All pilots retured safely.

By the time more arrived Egypt had with drew from the war & had lost it. So they were instead assigned as trainers in Syria & Egypt as they were more skilled in Muslim countries. Later Saudi Arabia leased them from Pakistan. Since than many pilots have been leased by Saudis. Initialy they (Saudis) lacked the education level to train local pilots so most of the pilots assigned to major ACs were of PAF. In 60 & 70s they flew F-5s. Infact in 1971 war Saudis had let go of the leased pilots & sent them home for the war with their F-5s. These F-5s never saw the action & returned to Saudi Arabia.

Saudis also lacked the knowledge of AirCrafts hance the knowledge to evaluate fighters aswell as commercial airline. PIA was brought in to straighten up the Saudi Air Lines & PAF Air Craft evaluation officers were inducted in RSAF.

But a condition was set by the Saudis. They said that the leased PAF pilots will be refered to as RSAF pilots not PAF’s. They will remain property of Saudis till their contract expires. It is hence not many know that many of the pilots are Pakistanis.

It was in late 90s that educated Saudi Arabs started to come & more educated Saudi Princes’ were interested in flying. So the Saudis also started to aquire more trainers from Pakistan.

All of this helped Pakistan as well. We got money & we got to train on F-15s our selves.

The loyalty of Pakistani Pilots to Saudi Arabia is at extream. Saudi Arabia consisting of the two holliest cities of Islam is a very importent country to us. They are bigger allies than the US (Some times we wounder wheather US is an allie or not). Pakistanis will give up their lives to protect the Saudi Land. Infact Pakistani ground troops are stationed in Saudi Arabia aswell. They fought against the Yemanis. It is because of this that Saudis also trust our evaluation officers that they will choose wisely for the hollyland & F-15 in 1980s was a wise choice, although Tornadoe wasnt. Very few officers favored it but the Saudi Defence Minister kept pushing the deal forward. Think it was Prince Abdulah now the King.

Initialy (1960s-70s & mid 80s) Pakistanis made up most of the Saudi Defence. Specialy in the AirForce.

PAF evaluation officers are the real deal there thats why the Americans & French try to pursue Pakistan to pursue Saudis. Pakistan had got the F-16s & Americans wanted us to pursue Saudis to buy F-15s which was superior Air to Air Fighter. This gave Pakistani Pilots a chance to train on F-15s aswell. We agreed.

Similar is the story with UAE infact PAF has been more strong there than Saudi Arabia as UAE is more nearer in geographic terms. You can call UAE international defence Air Base of Pakistan. According to a pact PAF can fly & land at UAE bases during war time. If you look closely at the UAE AirCrafts they are all what PAF wanted in its inventory. F-16s, Mirage2000-9 etc. Pakistan also sold K-8 to UAE & has been marketing JF-17 to them.This is all because PAF pilots there feel more accomidated to these AirCrafts.

Flyers are Pakistanis as well as the evaluators. When Americans learned this (while they were pissed off on us) they asked UAE not to let Pakistanis train & fly the F-16s. The ameer of Abu Zebi & President of UAE replied to Americans ” if they dont fly it than who would. We certainly wont let your boys in” & threaned Americans of withdrawl from the F-16 deal, hence Pakistanis now have oppertunity to fly Block 60E/F aswell. But like Saudis the leased Pilots to UAE would be refered to as UAE-AF pilots & officers & not Pakistanis or PAF. Infact the pilots who serve for 15 years & than retire in UAE will be granted citizenship.

The trend has changed though specialy in UAE. Pakistani trainers + Americans have trained local UAE ppl pretty well now. By 2015 Local arabs of UAE would hopefully make up the 85% of the officers as the education level rises there & I hope we will get our pilots back. Saudis are bit slow but as education level rises so does their interest in Air force. Many Princes have joined RSAF infact crown prince Sultan’s Son is a good flyer now. He is being trained for action now on F-15. Believe it or not he has his own personal instructor. Yes the instructor is Pakistani.

Saudi Government has the real decision power. They are the real ppl who have to choose. Pakistanis only make the list of fighters & advice Saudis aswell as try to pursue them.

As said above. Saudis trust Pakistanis in defence matters with their eyes shut. Pakistanis will give up their lives to protect the holyland & have put their lives on front against Yemanis more than once.

Money was not the problem. Education was. Most Saudis even today cant speek english. Some can speek Urdu national language of Pakistan this is becuase significant number of visits by Pakistanis there. You may even see Urdu writen here & there in cities like Jaddah, Madinah & Mecca. But any ways as they couldnt speek English & aviation-airforce & military terms were new to them they couldnt adopt. So they bring in Pakistanis. It was easier for Americans to train ppl who could speek English than arabic.

As I mentioned above. According to the contract these pilots & officers would be refered to as the property of RSAF not PAF. They would be called Sauids not Pakistanis till their contract ends.

On the other hand some Pakistani pilots refused to go to war with fellow Muslims of Iraq & dint go to war. They were later replaced by other Pakistanis.

French have market Rafale to Pakistan & Saudis quite alot. Dont know what have been decided by Saudis but Pakistan now seems to be interested. We have got two AirCrafts that tops our list. JAS-39 Gripen & than Rafale. Not so amazingly the Saudis too have the similar list except they also include F-16s. We already are purchasing abt 55+ F-16s so they are not on the list for evaluation & I dont think Pakistanis will evaluate F-16s. We just buy them eyes wide shut. Not so amazingly & not a coincident that both PAF & RSAF have turned Mirage2000-9.

So you see if you twist PAF’s fingers than Saudis will also feel the pain at the same time.

If you havent noticed that when Pakistan went to evaluate Sweidsh Erieye AWACs so did Saudis & when US brought their E2C HawkEye to Pakistan for evaluation the Saudis too got interested in it with out even physicaly seeing the AirCraft & why should they. It was enough that we did it.

It is because of this French want Pakistan to consider Rafale so it could be bought in bulk by Saudis & Pakistanis togather & Pakistan would like that as they can get some finance from Saudis aswell.

French offered Rafale to UAE but boys there already said F-16 Block 60E/F which at the moment is claimed to be pretty good compared to Rafales. But just to make Dessault Happy Mirage2000-9 was sorted with some avionics adopted from Rafale. Not coincidently Pakistan also evaluated Mirage2000-9.

I have never heard of any such information.
Your reference about Paskitani pilots flying for the Egyptians and the Syrians has never been documented, at least not to my knowledge. I was aware that Russian advisers had flown combat missions during the six day war but none from Pakistan.
As well, I had the pleasure of meeting a Saudi pilot and he was a Saudi national. not once during our lengthy conversation did he make any mention of anyone from Pakistan. Now this could have been attributed to that I didn’t hold a classified information rating in Saudi defense matters, but he did mention advisors from both England and the United States. If he chose to reveal the existance of such people, why wouldn’t he have said anything about advisors from Pakistan working in Saudi Arabia?

@Shadow1: Do you have links for this MoU statement, no offence just curious.

I found an article mentionning the MoU statement but it was in French so I had to search a little deeper and found this. I hope the link will work:
http://news.ft.com/cms/s//1bffffc4-ad4c-11d9-ad92-00000e2511c8.html

So now that the ARH program was handed to Bell Helicopters, when can we expect a first flight of an actual prototypt and roughly how long until it makes it into service. If I remember correctly, I read an IOC date of 2009.
The other question I have is: can we expect Kiowa Warrior users to be interested in purchasing this aircraft at some point?

What hot-looking bird!

This is the first time I ever seen this machine. I didn’t even know it existed. What was its purpose and what type of performance did it display during its testing program? As well, what was the purpose of this aircraft? Did the USAF have any plans to refit its fleet of F-4s?

A quick round of golf first thing Saturday morning, followed by a boat ride on Lake Huron with friends. In the evening, I imagine there will be a BBQ involved with a “moderate” amount of alcohool and loud music. Sunday will be recovery time.