RSM55I like the Granits.
Anyway, last I checked Admiral Nakhimov was getting its missile systems modernized, and IIRC that meant improved Granits.
I love the Granits too 😀 The point is, they are useless because without Legenda/Liana and the like, they cannot be used at their max range. The Granit follow-on will have a modular speed-range function, which makes them flexible in case they put up some space-based ocean SIGINT or radarsat in place, but still enables the Navy to use them effectively at lesser range or with external guidance provided by other assets. It is basically the same old Granit with a new guidance system and improved cinematics.
Concerning the Nakhimov, what she’ll get is yet not clear – rumour has it that they plan to transform it into an arsenal ship of some sorts.
RSM55Also any news from the modernization of “Admiral Nakhimov? I read in a Russian forum that the modernization will be finished in 2015!! Why so late?
Because they have to replace basically everything but the hull and the reactor. And hopefully throw away the useless Granits.
RSM55I suspect that is what the Sarov sub is. a revisit of the Alfa.
Of course they do experiment again with liquid metal coolant reactors. They even put one in service for civilian uses (I don’t remember which power plant it was, but it happened in 2006 somewhere in Central Russia). But the thing is not a revisited Alpha. It is
1) either a hoax / journalistic error (which becomes less and less likely by the day, because of the quite nervous and strange reaction from the Navy and Security services)
2) or (as the consensus lies now in Russia) a “special purpose” sub, i.e. a “autonomous submarine nuclear station” aka a GRU (mil. intelligence) sub. GRU subs (you know, the Paltusses, Loshariks, Kashalots etc. ) are not operated by the Navy, the Navy does not know anything about their missions and purposes actually, their commanders do not report to the Navy in any case and their crews and bases are a no-go area for Navy officials. Which explains why the Navy denies any knowledge (they don’t even have to lie).
RSM55Something like this:dev2:
Sorry, haven’t got photoshop at work.
Even if I’d appear to indulge in hair-splitting, the Bear pictured here is not a bomber…:)
RSM55OMG!! You’re a fantasist too! Are you trying to groom me?
Try and find where I said I was Russian, dear Sir.
As for grooming you, you’ll be advised that this verb has a lot of alternative meanings, especially in transitive sentences 😀
RSM55Unga Munga!! I like being 1st.
Congratulations :diablo:
Besides, I consider it a funny effect of all our media-driven Russia-bashing that the only person who could conceivably say something positive about Russia must be a Russian him-/herself… Funny innit? Check my IP Otaku, and then we’ll laugh about my “patriotism” together…
RSM55So Fyodorov is a liar?
Why so harsh? 🙂 He was just… bending reality.
Quite frankly, he was trying to lure foreign customers into believing that real R&D was being done by his agonising (at that time) design bureau.
Oh yeah, that’s why Pogosyan nearly burst a blood vessel- screaching that there was no Russian engine manufacturer that could produce a suitable engine for a lightweight fighter- after Klimov JSC started design studies.
Please do provide some first-hand evidence about the how, why and when Pogosyan went ballistic. And his remark was perfectly sound, nothing good would have come out of a “new” engine for a “lightweight” fighter – except yet another half-capable mutant of the RD-33 family.
I’m well aware of S-37 in-house funding & various Su-27/30 developments.
But where did that money come from?- from Chinese & Indian Su-27/30 orders, not from the Russian govt. So thank Beijing & New Delhi for saving Sukhoi’s bacon.
So what? my point was that the gov. funding was scarce/unavailable and that they did what they did on very limited funding.
No, logically it means India would be wise to buy the SH- a worthy complement to the F-35, as opposed to the MiG-35- which is an inferrior contemporary to the SH.
You’re surely not implying the Zhuk-AE is anywhere near to capability or operational status of the APG-79 (3rd Gen.AESA).
I wrote sensorS. Plural. And I don’t think they are much people around who can compare the two radars you mentioned. Plus, the APG-79 has its own issues and can be called “3rd generation AESA” only within ad booklets.
There’s nothing wrong with being a patriot, just try not to be a fanatic.
You’re the first person in my life who was able to formulate such a thought about me…:D
RSM55No, you’re mistaken.
Unfortunately, I’m not 😉
Yes, India wanted Sukhoi to scrap PAK-FA, and start a G5 project with them as equal partners, from inception. Sukhoi, rightly refused, and the two parted company (circa.Nov.’05). This had Fyodorov’s MiG jumping for joy, as they saw potential for a lightweight 1.44 (LMFS) as a joint venture that may even (ultimately) interest the RuAF- with minimal funding, as a complement for PAK-FA.
MiG’s proposal was dead meat from the beginning on – political decisions have already been taken.
This got M. Pogosyan really worried and he started to turn the political screws.
He didn’t have to – the dice was not rolling anymore.
In August 2006 Sukhoi were (again) in New Delhi to renegotiate Indian involvement in PAK-FA, and more recently in June ’07.
At Le Bourget ’07 MiG acknowledged LMFS was dead, so what does that tell you?
Nothing except that the LMFS was acknowledged dead long after it was buried. That both govs negociate a potential Indian involvement is true -but it won’t extend beyond export risk-sharing.
-Sukhoi and India are close to finalising agreement
And you know what about? 😉
-this agreement (which appears imminent) will feature Indian involvement at all levels of EMD, which will do the Indians nicely.
Sure it would. If it would be the case. But it won’t. Period.
-Indian joint-development & production of an ‘export variant’ will ensure the PAK-FA will appear in the time frame to go head-to-head with the F-35 on the export market, and not just the niche market of current Su-30/35 operators.
Yep, that’s closer to the truth. But it will be an export variant, and the main production effort will take place in Russia. That’s what I know.
-as for Russia being awash with money, you clearly underestimate the cost of such a programme.
I don’t. I’m sure they would be very very happy to see the Indians co-fund a project they (the Indians) can’t control in return for something substantial, but neither India nor Russia is as dumb to do that. If there is political backing, the Russians will find enough ressources to do it on their own. I remind you that they rolled out the Berkut and almost all the Su-27 derivatives at a time when the country was still seeking financial aid from the West. Now they seem to have got a grand idea of building a new spaceport in Sovetskaya Gavan – just to repopulate the Far East and give workplaces to locals. They will invest tens of billions in Olympic games infrastructure – all purely political decisions.
Oh, how do you figure MiG-35 to be as good as the Super-Hornet? when the US Navy is pondering winding down it’s F-35 order- as it considers the SH as a worthy complement.
So what? does that mean that the F-35 is comparable to the Mig-35? 😀 You can’t make a point about A by comparing it with C compared to B. That’s called formal logic. As for your question:
– better and more versatile sensors
– commonality with other InAF types re training, doctrine etc (think about the navalised MiG-29 they will get)
– similar payload
– better versatility
Enough?
RSM55Detection range is given with up to 145 km,but that is probably under best circumstances (clear sky, hot afterburning target…). Typical range is often given with 50-80 km. It is said that the PIRATE offers a similar range performance as a F-16 radar (AN/APG-66 or 68).
Re the Italians and a cut in tranche 3
Re Pirate range – it has tracked Venus, so range is good :rolleyes: but there are rumours of 100’s of nm in the right circumstances against ‘cool’ aircraft.. make of that what you will:D
Cheers
One shouldn’t read defense advertisement booklets at dusk… 😀
C’mon guys, it’s a physical impossibility.
Maybe there’s something called “Typhoon physics” that ignores notions like maximal angular discrimination, permanent distortion effect, photonic threshold, infrared horizon, and disregards quantum mechanics (because “we don’t know how it works” 😉 ), but there are limits to PR-induced public delusion after all…
Well, actually, I amend myself…It IS physically possible if:
1) The Typhoon is a space plane OR
2) it flies within an atmosphere like in “The Day after Tomorrow”
3) it tracks a Super Bowl stadium-sized “cool” aircraft.
RSM55a) Wich area of radio-electronic industry did you think Russia is falling behind?,
Falling behind: High versatility comms, broadband (but that’s about to change), downsized satnav assets, digital signal processing (but NOT on the algorithm level!), network-centric PM, digilinks.
Catching up: mutli-sensor busses, EW systems (qualitatively – because before, they compensated with sheer output power), radar tech.
Still unsurpassed: laser tech, optical sensors, encryption, command and control algorithms and software integration.
my opinion is mostly on EW systems (being passive ESM/RWR gizmos, most acute case, compare it with the very rich and fluid european and american markets with lots of companys and products in the area),
There are 1000+ companies in Russia doing the same – the problem is more that they need to consolidate their sector and do something the customer really needs.
but radio-comunications for aircraft is something I have never heard that much..looks as something not important, but is there anything in Russia right now at service, compared per example to Have Quick II radio with frequency-hopping, burst transmission and so?.
Of course, they’re implementing them at slow pace, though. New encrypted digital radios used in Chechnya from 2001 on are said to be at least on par with Western systems – the Army is very content with them, at least. As for the AF, it’s more a doctrine problem – in case of war, most comms will run encrypted and on different channels, but it is forbidden to activate them in peacetime (i.e. they were practically never activated since 1945). Same thing is true about radar modes, EWR etc (the Tu-95, 22M3 and 160 have f.ex. a big sealed button marked “war”, by activating which all the systems switch to a different mode. The seal on it is one of the first thing that the ground personnel checks after a flight 😀 ). Practically, it means that any radio amateur can hear pilots talking crap when listening in the vicinity of Lipetsk 🙂 Burst transmissions gizmos aren’t fitted to all aircraft, of course, but there are some devices with burst and HOP modes on Su-34, -27SMs, -33, the MiG-31B variant (unconfirmed) and almost all aircraft whose designator ends with a “R” (save the MiG-25).
b) What is all about the different Vympel products?, Izd 170-1, Izd-180, Izd-760, Izd-300?, they were reported one year back at a conference backed by GosNIIAS, and K-77-1 (Izd 170-1) was announced to be in “state tests”…how did those missiles (170-1 and 180) really fare with the earlier known R&D made on K-77M and ramjet-powered R-77?…what happened to supposed IR-Adder and Anti-radar-Adder?
Its still classified tech, so no one would comment on it freely… The Adder derivates are supposedly cancelled, but they have been “accepted into service”, i.e. they completed factory and state trials. AFAIK the 170 is still being evaluated as the main long-range armament for the AF, along with another entirely different programme for the PAK FA (modular high velocity missile to replace the R-77) and the programme aiming at modernising the armament of the MiG-31.
RSM55Forgive me, I don’t know how to paste from ‘Flightglobal’, so I will quote directly:
“…but there are opportunities to participate in export versions such as variant
to be developed jointly by India and Russia”.Excuse my English, as I’ve only been learning the language for two years, but I didn’t spot the word “might” in that sentence. I’m not taking the article as gospel, but that would make it a journalistic/reporting error- not mine.
Otaku, I never suggested you made an error 🙂 And your English is near-perfect for someone who has been learning it for 2 years only… There is no “might” verbal sentence in the article indeed, I only wanted to turn your attention on the world “potentially” in the sentence “another potentially attractive project for overseas investors is the next-generation PAK FA fighter”. Therefore “might” and not “will be” (which denotes definiteness).
As for the export version, of course there are opportunities, but they are limited. Here’s why:
India wants significant participation in the PAK-FA programme (and offset agreements for large military purchases are subject to statute).
They want it indeed, but they won’t get it (unfortunately, IMHO), because India insisted on larger participation at the design stage, and Russia refused. On the other hand, India is not really interested to invest into a programme that is almost finalized.
Opening production line(s) in India for the export variant- fully customised (mainly avionics suites) as requested- would be a pretty smart move- in return for India’s $billions invested.
That’s a clear possibility – but India has not yet invested much in that particular programme, let alone billions… And no one in Russia wants to give production lines to a foreign customer now – we’re not in 1998 anymore – therefore, if anything, India is likely to produce avionics and E-suites that will be fitted to Russian-built airframes in Russia – that’s all. I don’t say that I like that or not, I’m just reporting what I hear.
Everybody wins, the Russians get the money, the Indians get the technical know-how and future export customers get Israeli/ French/ British/ Swedish/ German avionics Economically, it makes sense, maybe they’ve stolen a march on Lockheed- who refuse to open foreign production assemblies for the F-35.
Economically, it doesn’t make sense. What do the Russians get? Just cash. And they are awash with it at the moment, if political decisions follow the technical guidelines, everything will be OK. If not, their own fault. But they won’t trade crucial tech know-how, that could potentially win them large world market shares, for an isolated cash injection. The Russians can trade directly with France, Israel etc. bypassing India, as they do now with Thales.
MiG’s all but lost the MMRCA tender due to the INS Vikramaditya scandal (with the IAF hopefully opting for the qualitatively superior Super Hornet).
That’s not sure yet. And the “new” MiG-35 is not inferior to the Super Hornet, at least when regarding the Indian specifications.
Now it seems the Russian govt. has intervened to assure India that the carrier will be delivered on-time as “it’s far too important a project for the countries future relations”. Hmmm…interesting comments coming at a time when Lockheed is trying to tempt India with the F-35.
If I would be the Indian CINC, I would never opt for the Lightning. Not enough range for all the theaters that are supposed to be covered, insufficient payload, insufficient versatility and the whole thing depends too much on US political weather forecasts. Stealth is not justified in the region. If anything US-built, the Super-Hornet will do.
A high-level Indian Defence delegation is due to visit Moscow at the end of August, so watch this space…and think carefully before deriding the Indians as mere ‘sub-contractors’, Savy?
I’m very far from deriding anything Indian, Otaku. I just don’t see any opportunity for Russian-Indian cooperation in the PAK FA programme at the present – and as long as I don’t see any signed contract I will hold on my gospel. IMHO everything will turn out this way: India will fund some R&D for their own variant, provide some avionics for the export variant, get some back-sourcing and end as an subcontractor. It doesn’t preclude anything regarding further cooperation on other programmes.
RSM55Interesting preview articles on MAKS’07:
A curious twist to the PAK-FA tale, that India & Russia will be co-developing the ‘export variant’ and foreign investors may be sought.
Well, actually the article doesn’t say “will be”, it says “might”.
And foreign investors (or, better said, sub-contractors) are sought for the export variant, but the Russians have repeatedly stressed that possibilities for cooperation is very very limited (and the article states that again, btw).
So Russian and foreign (including Indian PAK-FAs) will differ markedly?
As any exported Russian aircraft differed from its national counterpart in the past. The PAK FA electronic suite is entirely home-grown (its a requirement from the MoD), so the export variant might fly with foreign avionics.
Maybe India will exclusively manufacture the ‘export variant’?
Dream on! 😀 Seriously, it could act as a subcontractor for some elements, no doubt – starting in 2030…
RSM55The fact that wonders me is that they (from Sukhoi or generally from Russia) don’t even want to show a picture or at least a crude drawing of PAK-FA. What will they lose if show a hand-made crude drawing to the public, to satisfy the curiosity. The plane is already designed.
Is this means, that the aerodynamics (the shape generally) of PAK-FA has some special features and they don’t want …. let’s say the rivals (China, Japan, and maybe India), to see it? :diablo:
Why should they? First of all they are not like the Chinese, whose national pastime seems to have shifted from callygraphy to photoshopping, and after all, there are people like Paralay around 😀
And the good news is that they will actually display it shortly before or after its “first” flight. They finally got the idea that a plane isn’t secret as soon as it’s out of the hangar for more than 10 minutes anyway.
And my guess is that they don’t want people to be disappointed… AFAIK it won’t be some kind of disc-shaped Death Star or black-painted Millenium Falcon either. Spectacular enough, but, well… functional, you know. The Russian way.
RSM55RSM-55:
Some questions if you don’t mind
Hi Pit, of course I don’t, still bearing in mind that there is a thing called “art. 283 of the Penal Code of the Russian Federation”… 😀
a) What’s the name of the AESA set planned for 5th Gen Russian Fighter?…is NIIP product?, did Epaulet-A test-bed have anything to do with it?, what TMR tech will use?, GaAs or GaN?. Any information?
The name is not known to me, neither is the product designator. It is thought to be designed by the Tikhomirov bureau indeed, with some backsourcing from the experience gained through the Zhuk-AE (FGA-29) Phazotron programme, but the array size will be different. No idea about the details. Allegedly, it is supposed to have all the modern fashionable gimmicks (TWS, passive lock, stealth tracking and lock, ECM mode etc.). Don’t know whether it will feature gallium-nitride conductors, the institute for Applied Materials did some research on them for many a year in any case (starting with the ill-fated NO-14 project).
The Epaulet-A is mainly and purely a tech testbed for something that will indeed find an application in the future AESA, but it is not “just” AESA tech. The Russians did a very good job at making everybody believe it was an AESA test bed.
b) Is there any information about ESM/RWR products developed in Russia after the L-150 “Pastel” series?…this seems to be the last they ever developed for airborne solutions, not bad through, superheterodyne receivers, and some niceties, but that’s a 1982 project. Aside of Avtomatika (TsKBA) who else do this kind of work?…I know ECM are researched by KNIRTI and TsNIRTI in airborne uses. This question applies to any RWR for any new russian fighter (Su-35, Su-34, etc)
That’s a very good question – the ESM suite of the PAK FA is one big secret within an enigma…you know the rest. What I know is:
– ESM/RWR and some radar sensors will be distributed conformally on the whole airframe
– The new SPO is based on the Pastel indeed, but will be much more capable in terms of man-machine interface (bearing and distance indicators within full 3D environment)
– ECM suites in the Post-Soviet world are essentially a multiple-contractor product, the leading research institutes only provide overall coordination. AFAIK, the leading contractor is Avtomatika, but it most probably works in cooperation with several others.
On the other hand, things seem to be going quite well with electronic suites R&D and integration, especially since the decision to retain and modernise the MiG-31 fleet with new sensors and avionics – they seem to work like hell on that particular issue – with the announced aim that the Foxhound “benefits from all the electronic suites developped for the PAK FA”. They even train young lieutenants to fly it now (and not first class pilots like in the past).
[/QUOTE]c) Any info on new datalink/NWC solutions?, last I have ever heard was “MSPD”, you can read something about at: http://www.gzas.nnov.ru/produkt/avia/r11.htm
But I don’t get very good the specs, per example, what’s the transmission rate?, can you comment on it?[/QUOTE]
Heard rumours about a new “top secret ultra-secure super-cool” laser beam datalink system, with tremendous bitrates, but nothing definite.
The MSPD simply means “Communication and Data Transmission Module” and is actually fairly old. Transmission rate is between 75 and 16000 baud, it has 2 effective MIL-STD channels, 14/4 entry/exit consecutive and 96/16 parallel channels. Its advantage is that it’s (relatively) light (10 kg) and small, making installation easier on smaller types of aircraft or helos.
Something similar is being done for the PAK FA by the FGUP “TsKBA” at the moment.
d) Why have been so many announces in the press about the bad state of the PAK-FA program according to you?
Because Russia is becoming more and more like the US by the day 😀 Same sh…, sorry, interesting reporting as about the F-35. As usual: lots of cash, lots of interests, various intra- and inter-corporate feudal wars… F.e.: Salyut wants more cash but doesn’t want to invest too much, especially since in 2001 or so it wasn’t even clear whether the PAK FA will remain indefinitely on paper, so it re-labels yet another iteration of the much-tortured AL-31F and shouts “we made it! on our own funds! reward us!”, forgetting the fact that they are a public company and that therefore, the said funds aren’t “their own” – and the fact that they are just another factury that has to do what it’s told to (meanwhile Saturn leads a coop with UMPO, TSIAM Baranov, Soyouz, VILS, STAR, Motor and it works out well, NB). So when Salyut loses its only lobbyist (Mikhailov) everything goes down the tube (or the combustion chamber, as you please) and who does one turn to when the sh.. hits the proverbial fan? – right, the press.
Same thing about the radar, same thing about alleged problems at the KnAAPO (that was the Irkutsk factory wanting some more shares) etc etc etc.
Besides, some real problems arise, of course, as with any project – but they are not accessible to the press.
RSM55The big P here seems to be the engine – but it’s obvious now that the pre-series (and probably the early series) will fly with the 117 with or without thrust-vectoring.
It’s a bit weird to quote and amend oneself, but the latest piece of news is that the other important issue is the PAK FA OLS integration – thought to be based on the new OLS by NII PT. Could be connected with stealthiness issues, but got no confirmation (would be obvious, actually, considering the size of the device). The OLS is allegedly codenamed “Basilisc” (don’t know if it’s a production codename, a military designator – don’t think so – or just a nickname of sorts – fits quite well IMHO for an optical seeker-tracker 😉 )
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