Edgar BrooksCharlie. You are right. It doesn’t matter, although clearly it matters greatly to dear Edgar.
Do me the courtesy of ditching the patronising, sarcastic comments; apparently it’s fine for Mr. McKay to introduce Burma into a BoB thread, and for you to put it into a thread on allegedly buried Merlins, but I’m not allowed to protest at the great author’s behaviour. Unfortunately, at my age, I no longer have a forelock to tug, nor will my arthritis allow me to genuflect in your presence, so you’ll just have to lump it.
it seems to be he that keeps on banging on about Burma.
Actually, I “bang on” about its overuse and misuse, but that counts for little, when you can so easily manipulate and misrepresent what I’ve said.
So, back to Dilip’s book, then….
I’ll wait without bated breath.
Edgar BrooksIt seems that I failed to make myself clear; I thought that all would realise that my complaint was aimed at those who, yet again, feel it necessary to drag Burma into every possible thread, with the (erroneous, I thought) idea that its mere mention sends everybody into paroxysms of mirth.
As far as I’m concerned, the Roc, Defiant, Blenheim, and any other relevant aircraft which flew during the Battle has every right to a mention; if someone has proof that Burma was involved in 1940, I’ll cease my objections.
Edgar BrooksFrom what I can see, much of the debate has centred around relative Spitfire and Hurricane ‘turn around’ times, interspersed with the usual banter that is a part of this forum.
You must have missed the introduction of Burma (again) into a thread which is nothing to do with said country, then; go back and read it properly.
For those who don’t like that element; other discussion forum sites are available.
Yet again you try to get people to leave the forum; are you looking for exclusivity?
Anyway, back to Dilip’s book. Has anybody actually read it? Is it ‘new’ or does it contain re-cycled material from his other works?
Yes, I have, and had reason to refer to it several times when the Hurricane v Spitfire debate surfaces, yet again. Published in 2010, I’m not sure if it can be classed as new, and I can’t comment on the possible recycling of material, since I haven’t read his complete output. At an original price of £18.99, it has, since, been reduced on several sites, so how about getting a copy, and letting us have the benefit of your opinion?
Edgar BrooksAnd so we bid farewell to the thread on a book by Dilip Sarkar, which held a certain amount of interest, until the hijackers moved in. I can’t help thinking that students of obsessive compulsive disorders would do well to concentrate on threads containing material on Burma and Spitfires.
Edgar Brooks1/ That was rather my point: there would be rotation but the chances of the North Western approaches, for example, being defended by Spitfires rather than Hurricanes would be small. 19 squadrons probably being used more or less continuously in Southern England against 30 squadrons spread over the whole of Great Britain (not forgetting rests and reequippings) would help the statistics.
Sorry, but you assume too much; I’m not going to go through all 19 Spitfire Squadrons, since it’s nearly midnight, but here are four:-
41 Squadron Hornchurch May-June 1940; Catterick Jun-Jul 1940; Hornchurch Jul-Aug 1940; Catterick Aug-Sep 1940; Hornchurch rest of 1940.
602 Squadron Drem, Dyce & Montrose until August 1940, then Westhampnett until December.
603 Squadron Dyce & Montrose until August 1940, then Hornchurch until December.
610 Squadron Gravesend & Biggin Hill May-August 1940, then Acklington until December.
Unlike the Germans, Dowding didn’t work his pilots until they dropped.
Edgar BrooksNo, we aren’t, but the “My gang’s better than your gang” nonsense has always been between the Hurricane and Spitfire, with each side carefully picking out each aircraft’s attributes, and suppressing its faults.
The Defiant was the right design, for the wrong battle; in the National Archives there’s a file, showing the various planned attacks, which were all designed against unescorted bombers. Nobody had ever considered the possibility of the 109s arriving over here.
Edgar BrooksJust a thought but does it show where each squadron was? Statistics can be made to prove just about anything – if there were more Spitfire squadrons along the south coast than Hurricanes, might they have had a better chance of achieving a higher average?
And of course we all know that more Luftwaffe pilots claimed to be shot down by Spitfires than anything else…
1/. It would rather depend on which particular day you did a survey, since Squadrons were continually rotated between airfields, or sent north for a rest, then brought south again, when considered ready. There might have been a time when there were more Spitfires in 11 Group, though with 30 Hurricane Squadrons against 19 of Spitfires that might take some finding.
2/. What Luftwaffe personnel claimed is irrelevant, since the losses have been generally taken from the Luftwaffe Quartermaster General’s Loss Returns.
I’d be interested to pick up a copy one day out of curiosity proving that what the author may lack in memorable writing style he more than makes up for with his marketing skills.
Judging a book by its cover, by any chance?
Edgar Brooks‘How the SPITFIRE won the Battle of Britain’. “Finally lays to rest the myth that the Hurricane won the Battle of Britain rather than the numerically inferior,yet more glamorous Spitfire’
If Dilip has his way new students of the BoB will be brainwashed into thinking the RAF only possessed RJ’s finest during the battle.
I’m sticking with Stephen Bungay and Dr Alfred Price.
As for the Hurri winning the Battle, I always assumed the Spit and Hurri complemented each other ?
I was never under the impression that either won it themselves.
Excuse me asking, but have you (and the other critics here) actually read the book, which has, incidentally, been around since 2010?
For years, all we’ve heard is how the Hurricane destroyed more of the enemy than all of the other defenders put together, and the author, by pulling together all of the available figures, shows that it wasn’t so. He also does not denigrate the Hurricane, in fact, in his “Conclusion,” he states, “So, whilst the claim that the Hurricane executed greater damage upon the enemy whilst the Spitfire walked away with the glory is largely a myth, the fact is that in 1940 the Hurricane was essential in the defence of this country.”
Among a plethora of figures, he shows that 19 Spitfire Squadrons destroyed around 530 aircraft (at an average 28 per Squadron,) while 30 Hurricane Squadrons destroyed 656 (at 22.5 per Squadron.) So the Hurricane destroyed more in total, but fewer per Squadron.
If nothing else, it shows that the old saying that “There are lies, damned lies, and statistics” still holds good.
Edgar BrooksI buy a chicken nearly every week, and, if it’s seagulls you need, you can have the flaming nuisances which populate the local rubbish dump.
Just in case you think I don’t like birds, I take great pleasure in watching a green woodpecker, which occasionally visits the garden, digging up worms, etc., and we have many red kites around, whom the seagulls think they can attack, but get severely chastised for their impudence.
Edgar BrooksI buy a chicken nearly every week, and, if it’s seagulls you need, you can have the flaming nuisances which populate the local rubbish dump.
Just in case you think I don’t like birds, I take great pleasure in watching a green woodpecker, which occasionally visits the garden, digging up worms, etc., and we have many red kites around, whom the seagulls think they can attack, but get severely chastised for their impudence.
Edgar BrooksSupermarine, in a 1976 symposium, on the Spitfire, stated that the Mk. VII & P.R.XI used 4-blade Rotol Hydulignum props. According to “Spitfire, the History,” Hydulignum blades were an option on the VIII, IX, X, XI, XVI & XIX.
Edgar BrooksAccording to a post-war report, up to 1940, Hordern-Richmond had factories in Chesham, Haddenham, and Princes Risborough, producing fixed-pitch props (but doesn’t specifically name customers, other than the M.A.P.,) with another, in High Wycombe, from October 1942. The report also says that Hordern-Richmond worked under the supervision of Rotol.
Edgar BrooksAccording to his book, “Rotol,” Bruce Stait says that Hydulignum was used, and a Rotol book lists propellers, with a green disc on their front face, as being constructed of Hydulignum.
Edgar Brooksthe only reason the likes of Saudi want him out is to extend their influence and possibly run a gas pipeline through his country.
Frankly, I believe that you’re closer to the real answer than you think; there are plans to do just that, which would effectively sideline Russia, and remove a main source of revenue, at a stroke. As long as Assad doesn’t allow it, he has a grateful Putin virtually in his pocket, so you get the pair of them scratching each others backs, and to hell with the populace.
Edgar Brooksthe only reason the likes of Saudi want him out is to extend their influence and possibly run a gas pipeline through his country.
Frankly, I believe that you’re closer to the real answer than you think; there are plans to do just that, which would effectively sideline Russia, and remove a main source of revenue, at a stroke. As long as Assad doesn’t allow it, he has a grateful Putin virtually in his pocket, so you get the pair of them scratching each others backs, and to hell with the populace.
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