SimonHWe’re up to page three – stick around Simon, only another three to go.
Well, so far the has been talk of Angelina Jolie, girlie bondage with high heels and free women…..I aint going nowhere!! 😀 In fact, I am tempted to beg, borrow or steal a plane and come to this fly in myself! 😎
SimonHErmmmm…
As on the appointed date I can’t participate, all I can do is now stand back with a bemused look on my face whilst the proponents of Norwich and West Midlands Intergalactic fight their corners in a thread entitled
“Elvington 25th March – Key Forum Fly-in”
Moggy
It happens on nearly every Pilots forum when ever a fly in is mentioned. 6 pages covering the pro’s and cons of every UK airfield and in the end everyone lobs over the channel for the cheap Vino!!
SimonHIf this is THE Trinny off the box, I wouldn’t argue with her….she’s pretty ruthless!! Binned some old girls entire wardrobe the other night. Twas heartbreaking, whilst at the same time quite funny to watch!
SimonHI was lucky enough to fly in the worlds only flying example of the Tipsy Belfair a few weeks ago. Absolutely stunning aeroplane.
SimonHMmm, should you be doing that in anything?
Nope, not intentionally….I thought that would be obvious :rolleyes: But a low houred pilot probably will at some point. We cant all be skygods with 1000’s of hours 😉
SimonHHi Neal
I am no expert but for what its worth, I have a friend who owns a Jodel. He says they are great little planes and do everything well. The only gripe he had was that apparently the main gear attaches directly to the wooden main spar which means you cant smack it into the deck like a 152.
Best thing to do is go and talk to the group and be up front and honest. As long as you dont mess them about they will understand if you deceide its not for you.
SimonHI know all the instructors at Conington very well and they are a good bunch. The airfield itself has good facilities and nearly a 1000 metres of hard runway so you can leave your wellies at home too!
Speak to Gavin Forrest (the CFI) initially and Graeme Tough is your man if you go for the twin rating. Good luck and maybe see you there some time.
SimonHGood luck with it Dean. The one thing that puts me off night flying is where do you put the thing down if the fan stops?? The thought of being away from the airfield and aiming for a ‘Black’ bit and hoping for the best is not very appealing. At least in daylight you can see the ditches, fences etc….
I think I’ll save the fun of night flying until I get a MEP rating. At least if an engine goes i’ll have a fighting chance of landing back between the runway lights 😉
SimonH….Still I’ve had to make an aborted jumprun more than once, and more than twice because some prick was seen flying through our jumpzone.
Lol Galdri!! Well I actually called the guy an idiot in my first post but your version is probably more acurate!!
From reading the last line in post No7, I naturally assumed it meant that Moggy did not agree the pilot was an idiot. That is what prompted me to go to great lengths to reinforce my point.
I am not trying to rock the boat or anything like that. I am just trying to raise a safety issue. Planes and parachutes dont mix…people die. It would be a pretty shallow person who banned me for reinforcing a safety issue dont ya think?
SimonH….Originally Posted by SimonH
Basically what you are saying is its ok for planes to fly through DZ’sWhere in “My attitude is that there were faults on both sides” does it imply that I think it OK for planes to fly through drop zones?
Moggy
Moggy, if you’re going to quote me mate at least quote the full sentence. The sentence you quoted ended with 2 question marks…I was seeking confirmation of your stance on the issue, thats all. I was looking for confirmation because from reading post No7 where you quote Mr Cross and state “As I’m lazy, and anyway couldn’t put it better myself, I’ll quote from Mike Cross’s posting elsewhere.” I was led to believe that you were trying to make the Jumpmaster on that particular load to be at fault for this incident. I assumed that was the reason for highlighting the word Jumpmaster?
Look guys, we can split hairs over this all day but the points I am trying to make are these.
1. Flying through airspace where there is a higher than average chance of being struck by a falling object is at best poor airmanship and at worst willfull endangerment.
2. You cannot expect the Jumpmaster to easily spot a small aircraft which blends in with the landscape when its 3 miles below him. I know, I have tried it.
3. Lets forget about whether an aircraft can legally be in a DZ or not. It is extremely DANGEROUS. Is that on its own not good enough reason to keep clear?? You can legally enter a MATZ without permission too, but if you thought it was active it would be a pretty stupid thing to do. Same with Danger Area’s. You can legally enter them too, but according to the CAA, if you get shot down by a prototype missile or whatever in a Danger Area, they would prosecute for “willfull endangerment of an aircraft”, assuming you survive of course.
4. If all planes stay clear of DZ’s, there is no chance of anyone getting killed. If planes fly through DZ’s the chances of a death are a lot higher. That is pure simple logic, common sense…call it what you will, but most of all, its a FACT.
AFH10, I know skydivers are no angels. I have seen GPS/radio spotting and I know it goes on. However, if the Jumpmaster can see the DZ and make a visual spot, that makes it legal. That could be through a small gap in otherwise solid overcast.
When you ask “Can you honestly say that everyone will be in that airspace when they jump from 10,000 feet?”…well, generally yes. Parachutes dont generally travel great distances but usually land on the drop zone. If they kept going outside the 2 mile zone it would mean lots of long walks back to the DZ. I’m not trying to be cocky AFH, i’m just trying to honestly answer your question based on my experience’s. After all, I am sure after your own experience you wouldn’t now fly near a DZ without talking to them first would you??
If it simplifies things for pilots, why not assume that all skydivers are dodgey rule breakers and that the jumpmaster is to busy looking at the GPS to spot any planes over the DZ. That way at least the pilot KNOWS what course of action to take….simply avoid the place!
SimonHMoggy, as I said, I am a pilot and I have also jumpmastered jump planes. I have personal experience of both. Basically what you are saying is its ok for planes to fly through DZ’s and its down to the jumpmaster to spot any planes below him and if there is an airprox between the two, its the jumpmasters fault?? Do you seriously expect a jumpmaster to be able to easily spot a tiny plane 3.5 miles below him which is 2 miles away from the drop zone, which is blending in with all the other features on the ground below it??
If you are a pilot, you will know how difficult it can be to spot a plane in the air when it is below the horizon. A jumpmaster has the same problem and the only protection he has if he cannot see any planes in that little maroon parachute printed on the maps.
I dont wish to get into a heated debate but I am simply echoing what the CAA safety inspector said at Sibson on Monday night. His advice was to stay away from drop zones at all times…..PERIOD. I will gladly pass on his name and phone number if you would like to discuss it with him.
You may understand my attitude to planes flying in drop zones if I tell you I was jumping at Knettishall a number of years ago when a glider pilot insisted on flying around in the drop zone while parachuting was in progress. In trying to prove a point that he was entitled to be in that airspace by disrupting the jumping, he ended up killing both himself and his passenger. I never want to witness something like that again which is why I support the CAA inspectors view that planes should keep well clear of drop zones.
SimonHWell with that attitude we might as well all fly through marked gliding sites at 1000ft where they are winch launching, after all, we have as much right to be there as the gliders. Lets just overlook the fact that its extremely DANGEROUS.
Moggy, supporting that attitude is pathetic. I was at the CAA Safety Meeting at Sibson on Monday night where they showed that clip and the CAA made it quite clear that the pilot was at fault. I have jumpmastered loads myself and I’m sure you can imagine how difficult it is to see a plane thats 12,000ft below you. Its a tiny spec!! Besides, at the point of exit, assuming the Chippy is travelling at about 100kts, the plane would have been about 1.5 to 2 miles away from the DZ.
The jumpmaster does not have any contact with LARS. The jumpship pilot is in contact with the drop zone on their frequency and despite what Mr Cross says, the radio is always manned. Sibson is a licenced airfield, it has an ATZ, A/G radio, flying schools….the lot!! It is crass incompetence on the pilots behalf to assume that he can just wonder through an ATZ or DZ even if he fails to raise them on his radio. Unless he has spoken to the operation in question and been CLEARED to fly through the zone, he should assume it is active and give it a very wide birth.
If a plane and skydiver collide, they will both die. If that is not good reason enough to avoid drop zones altogether then I dont know what is. Personally, I would rather promote the safe side of flying and will encourage anything to make it safer rather than bleat about ‘no actual rules being broken’ like its some sort of excuse.
SimonHThats quite a well known incident and the CAA show it at their Safety Meetings. Happened at Sibson near Peterborough. I’m not sure if the pilot was ever caught but he should have been shot for that. As an ex skydiver myself and now a pilot, I can see things from both sides. Parachute centres are marked clearly on aviation maps. There is simply NO excuse for what that idiot did, blundering through a drop zone putting lives at risk. Sibson has the A1 running next to it which is a pretty good Nav feature and its located just to the NW of Peterborough…again, pretty hard to miss!! If all that isn’t enough, Sibson is covered by Waddington LARS who will even tell you when the jumpship is running in and at what height!!!
I have whistled past planes in freefall, admittedly not so close, and believe me, it aint funny. If the pilot is lost and knows there is a parachute centre in the area he should call 121.5 and get a fix if he can’t get a radar service elsewhere.
Its very easy to become ‘unsure of position’ when flying, but all the help needed is just a radio call away. That help should be used sooner rather than later if you’re anywhere near a drop zone.
SimonHOh God no. I am totally stunned. Ray has been one of the biggest influences in my life to date and a nicer man would be hard to find. The first time I ever flew in a ‘small’ plane was with Ray when he took me up in a P40 at Duxford in 1985. I was just a young lad back then and Ray was a God in my eyes. His whole attitude and outlook on life were a huge inspiration to me. Ray always had time for everyone, I was just the guy helping look after the planes but he would always find time to come over and chat to me, and if he had been flying, always with a big grin on his face. I am a pilot myself now and that is mostly down to the influence people like Ray, Mark and Hoof played in my life.
God bless you Ray, you were one of the nicest people I ever met.
SimonHGot a copy of this given to me this weekend. Comes in newspaper format so its not as glossy as other publications BUT it is very well put together and definitely worth getting. Some very good articles, pics etc and sure cant complain at the price!!
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