The wing structure had to be altered to allow cannon fits, so weapon fit is to a large degree synonomous with wing structure.
No, it isn’t. Vast majority of Mk VCs flew with 2×20 mm + 4x.303 in. (which equals the ‘B’ weapon fit), you can hardly say that it was “synonymous with wing structure”.
Yes, and as ‘c’ and ‘e’ were more properly the armament designators than wing structure ones anyway.
Well, not exactly. ‘C’ was a wing structure, and (initially, at least) it could take various weapon fits.
Cat. B damage in 222 Sqn was on 19 June 1942, when it was damaged in combat with Fw 190s off Belgain coast, Sgt R. Hoare escaping unhurt. It was repaired by Westlands and went to 38 MU on 10 August, but was damaged cat. B in an accident on 26 August. This time repaired by the AST Hamble, it went to 610 Sqn as in your listing.
In 350 Sqn it was damaged cat. AC on 8 July. Repaired on site it resumed service with No. 350. In late September 1943 it went to 3501 Servicing Unit, presumably for conversion to LF.V.
The “133 Sqn” entry is doubtful: I don’t think there was a 133 Sqn in the RAF at the time. This might be a misspelling for 132 Sqn.
After the accident in September 1944, the damage category seems to have been changed to ‘B’ at the AST on the 23th. Following repair it was allocated to 9 MU on 22 January 1945. I found reference to the landing collision taking place on 17 February 1945, not the 27th.
The ‘D’ wing was the unarmed PR aircraft wing. Again, as no other wing was carried by the types that used it, a designator wasn’t used
Not as simple as that, I’m afraid. Early PR variants of the Spitfire were designated with letters that had nothing to do with the letter designators for wings in fighter variants. So, it wasn’t really the ‘D wing’, it was the ‘PR type D’ Spitfire wing. This was preceded (among others) by ‘PR type B’ and ‘PR type C’ Spitfires, and these were not fitted with the ‘B’ or ‘C’ fighter-type wings.
I wonder if there is one closer to London to examine?
IIRC they had one on display in the Bomber Command Hall at Hendon. But I’m not sure if I saw it when I was there last.
Milch’s testimony at Nuremberg shows:
8th March 1946
MILCH: ….Then there was a big international meeting in the summer, in July 1937, on the occasion of the aviation meeting in Zurich, which was held every five years. At this meeting we purposely showed our latest models of fighters, bombers, and Stukas……There was, for instance, the Messerschmitt Fighter 109 ….; the newest Dornier bomber type; the newest Stuka by Junkers…”Excellent. That’s great stuff. Only quibble is presumably it’s a translation from Milch’s German testimony? Do we have the original version?
James, are you suggesting ‘Stuka’ here is an English translation of a different German word?
He did fly V7434 (a later DZ-Y) though.
I presume you misspelled the serial here? V7434 seems to have been DZ-R in a well known photo.
It would still be helpful to see a photo of P3320 (I have seen the other photo).
I don’t have a scan at hand, but you can find it in “Poles in Defence of Britain”, if you can access the book.
Has he flown P3320 DZ-Y or V7434 DZ-R? Photos of both are known.
Can we stop trying to score self-satisfying points please?
Sure we can. But it’s so much fun, sometimes…
As I understand it, ‘Stuka’ is an abbreviation used by the Allies to describe the Ju-87, and rarely, if ever, any other German type, despite the fact it’s an abbreviation of the German for ‘dive bomber’. As such, it would be a nickname and was never a formal reporting name – although perfectly clear (if over-precise) in Allied use. Anyone got a problem with that?
As I understand it now, I misunderstood the meaning of the word ‘nickname’ in this context. Possibly because the closest equivalent in my Unenglish language implies an informal name that is applied to someone/something with the intention of emphasising a particular quality or feature of the object. ‘Rata’ or ‘Whispering death’ match this (regardless of whether they are genuine wartime stuff), ‘Stuka’ doesn’t, as it doesn’t mean anything in any of the Allied languages.
So, to get back to my original question as I meant it: apart from all those mythical nicknames that JDK meant when he started this thread, were there at all any informal nicknames applied to the-other-side’s aircraft that were not derived from their names/designations/roles but coined to stress their positive or negative aspects? Or were all such poetic and/or savoury names in fact produced by own-side propaganda and/or post-war authors.
If another German divebomber had been developed it is unlikely that the allies would have called it a Stuka, whereas the Gemans would.
That’s pure speculation. If it appeared on the cover of ‘Der Adler’ as the Von Klinckerhofen Vk987 Stuka, and was listed as such in aircraft recognition manuals, ‘Stuka’ it would be for Allied pilots.
Please check the history of the Henschel 123 and compare it to your earlier sweeping statement.
Sorry, must be my English again, but I don’t understand what you mean here.
Ju 88 amongst others.
Please…
We all know that ALL German bombers of WWII had to have the dive-bombing capability (one of the reasons they never got any decent heavy bomber).
But were Ju88s used by any of the StukaGeschwader? And if you encountered a Ju88 in the air how would you be able to tell if it is on a dive-bombing, level bobming or a heavy fighter mission?
Anyway, ‘Stuka’ was used by Allied pilots in reference to the Ju87 not because they chose it as an appropriate nickname for the aeroplane, but because that was what it was called in official German publications, and also in official Allied recognition publications.
JDK has started this thread to discuss the myths about nicknames apparently given to one’s enemy’s aircraft. I have asked my question because I was interested if there were any non-mythical nicknames of this kind. We can discuss the ‘Stuka’ (or ‘Ja-Bo’ of the same kind), but the point is that there don’t seem to be many others around. Obviously air crews gave a lot of informal nicknames to their own aircraft, but it seems this did not apply to their opponents.
As an abbreviation it applied to ALL dive bombers.
The allied use of the term for the Junkers example alone must therefore constitute a nickname as defined here. Its derivation which you quoted correctly is irrelevant.
No, it’s not. Ju 87 was “ALL German dive bombers”. Unless you can quote any other type of a dedicated dive bomber used by the Germans in any significant numbers.
Not sure what you are getting at VoyTech? We know of lots of names given, and ‘genuine’ at the time – do you mean ‘also used by the axis’ or ‘proper’ German / Japanese names? Zero would qualify in a sense as it was the Model 0.
As to the ‘Messer’ nickname I doubt the meaning of knife was even of passing interest even to a German speaking Allied pilot.
As to ‘sounds offensive’ that’s a subjective view – ‘Stuka’ was (and is) a highly fearful, even evil term then (and now) to the Allied people. To a German soldier, it was probably more welcome a term than the 7th Cavalry!
Sorry James, my poor English again.
Indeed, we know a lot of nicknames genuinely applied to friendly aircraft.
I meant nicknames (as opposed to official names; in exact accordance with your definition in post no. 50) given genuinely during the war (that is not invented post-war) to enemy aircraft (that is to German/Japanese a/c by the Allies and/or to Allied a/c by the Axis people).
‘Stuka’ (not a nickname!) sounds offensive by association with the actual aeroplane. It was a techical term, not an offensive name before applied.
The ‘Rata’ is a good example of what I meant – calling someone/something a ‘rat’ is offensive, regardless of what emotions the actual aeroplane causes in you.
… The Polikarpovs were the first fighters in the world to employ rockets as an airborne weapon and these proved devastatingly effective against the Japanese in Mongolia. This, by the way, is Bob’s theory on the origin of the name Rata, the feared rat, small and powerful, spreading plague across the world.
Why would a Spanish name be applied to a Soviet aircraft used against the Japanese over Mongolia? And who would apply it? I have always thought that the name was first applied during the Spanish Civil War, when a nationalist pilot said something like “these little things come out of their holes like rats”.
‘Doodlebug’ certainly, though that is actually a UAV
‘Stuka’ for the JU87
Right about Doodlebug. Stuka is an official German abbreviation for Sturzkampfflugzeug = Dive Bomber, so not a nickname.
“Jabos” for Allied Ground attack aircraft
Allegedly “Tail squirt” for Me 163
“Zero” of course was not actually official.
“Oka” is Japanese ( I think) for “fool” – “Cherry Blossom ” Kamikaze flying bomb.
“Jabo” is another official German abbreviation – Jaeger-Bomber
“Zero” was also a part of an official name of the type, as the Japanese designations included the year of design, and this fighter was accepted in the Japanese year ending 00 (not sure which one, I am not good at Japanese calendar). IIRC there were other aircraft dubbed “type 97” etc.
There are specific military definitions of what constitutes code names and what are nicknames. Under these the Allied WW2 and subsequent ASCC reporting designators are clearly defined , and referred to, as nicknames.
I have always thought they were known officially in military definitions as “reporting names”. They were not invented for the benefit of the press, but to facilitate reporting of enemy aircraft (with their real designations unknown), to save crews and intelligence officers the need for lengthy descriptions like “the twin engined bomber with single fin and rudder that looks a bit like the DC-3, but not quite” or “that new jet with delta wings and a single engine, with a cone at the front and a nozzle protruding beyond the tail”.
Interesting thread. One question that comes to my mind is: are we aware of any genuine nicknames given to enemy warplanes? Have Allied airmen given German or Japanese aircraft offensive or respectful nicknames? “Junkers” sounds offensive enough by itself, as does the popular abbreviated form of the “Focke-Wulf”. Messerschmitts were sometimes apparently called “Messer” (“knife” in German IIRC) but this again is just an abbreviation. So, were there any nicknames actually in use during WWII?
Not sure about the others, but F/Lt Stanislaw Skalski (yes, the Skalski) of 306 Sqn and P/O Witold Retinger of 308 each scored an Me 109 destroyed during Circus 81.